Paradise on Earth

Exploring the details of Christianity

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IaLoaou
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Post by IaLoaou »

OnceConvinced wrote:
IaLoaou wrote: The children of the devil always accuse me personally attacking them with the truth but like I'm going to tell you it is nothing personal it's just the truth.

I love how the truth always torments the children of the Damned.
IaLoaou wrote: I would never waste my valuable precious time on attacking you you're not worth it to me
If you bother me in any way whatsoever from this time forth you can kiss all the blessings that God gave to you and anyone connected to you in the flesh goodbye because they will leave you now of course I don't expect you to believe this in fact I don't want you to believe this because if you do anything to bother me with that that I do on here or anyone else you and they will lose your life you will lose your soul and you will lose everything because it will be taken from you in the spirit realm and given to me now I want you to think about this because I want you to know so there won't be no excuse for you in the spirit realm I can come on here anytime I want to and post anything I want to whenever I want to even if you ban me even if you ban me a thousand times but you on the other hand you will lose it all.

:warning: Moderator Warning


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tam
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Post by tam »

Peace to you,


I realize that OC is probably not concerned about what the above member said to him. But I also know it can be disturbing for some people to have curses (or even potential curses) thrown at them. So just in case, here is a reminder of what Christ said those who will listen to Him must do:


But to those of you who will listen, I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.




(Not that OC did anything wrong in simply doing his job as a moderator)




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Zzyzx
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Post by Zzyzx »

.
[Replying to post 1129 by IaLoaou]

Moderator Zzyzx has banned IaLoaou for blatant civility and for threatening people.

I am not intimidated by threats of loss of life or ‘soul’.
.
Non-Theist

If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

"Demand money with the threat of violence and you'll get arrested. Do it with the threat of eternal damnation and it's tax deductible"

sorrento
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Post by sorrento »

[Replying to post 1104 by RightReason]

This topic started way before I joined this forum and I haven't read all the posts, so I hope what I say is not off-topic
Wherever Christians imagine paradise to be, I am led to believe that only those in a state of grace will go there when they die and begin a new existence of eternal happiness and bliss. This, of course, would mean that those not in a state of grace would, when they die, be destined for an eternity of pain and suffering in some designated place. As I said, that is what I have been led to believe, but I am willing to be corrected.
My question is this, how could those who believe that they would enjoy an eternity of blissful happiness do so if they knew that a dear loved one such as a mother a father a son or daughter, who had not died in a state of grace, was suffering eternal torment? Is memory loss part of the deal?

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JehovahsWitness
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Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 1132 by sorrento]

The dead are conscious of nothing, when a person dies they cease to exist, so they cannot exist in a state of eternal anguish. The teaching of "hell"* is an unbiblical lie.

Think outside the box!


LEARN MORE



* The eternal torture of peoples immortal souls after they die

Go to other posts related to...

SOUL , HELL and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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PinSeeker
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Post by PinSeeker »

sorrento wrote: Wherever Christians imagine paradise to be, I am led to believe that only those in a state of grace will go there when they die and begin a new existence of eternal happiness and bliss. This, of course, would mean that those not in a state of grace would, when they die, be destined for an eternity of pain and suffering in some designated place. As I said, that is what I have been led to believe, but I am willing to be corrected.
No correction necessary. Jesus's is very clear in his parable in Luke 16 (vv. 19-31) in portraying the deceased rich man in conscious torment in hell.
sorrento wrote: My question is this, how could those who believe that they would enjoy an eternity of blissful happiness do so if they knew that a dear loved one such as a mother a father a son or daughter, who had not died in a state of grace, was suffering eternal torment?
That question is really unanswerable, sorrento, except to say that there are many things, this being one of them, about the eternal order of things that are beyond our ability to comprehend presently. I would answer your question with a question: Might we not see those who have rejected serving the Lord in an entirely different light from that entertained on earth, even though we were connected to them closely in the flesh? I say yes, though I can't say how. But it seems very possible to me that being in the presence of a Holy God may take care of a great many things that we now see as “problematic.� (from our current, incomplete vantage point).
sorrento wrote: Is memory loss part of the deal?
LOL! I don't think so. I see it kind of like being a parent in that once you have kids, you can't imagine your life without them, really to the point of leaving that portion of your life completely behind. You can remember your single, childless life, but it seems entirely insignificant.

Grace and peace to you, sorrento.

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onewithhim
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Post by onewithhim »

IaLoaou wrote:
onewithhim wrote:
IaLoaou wrote:
PinSeeker wrote:
IaLoaou wrote: There is no Paradise on Earth.
... yet. But we can live as though there is, because we know it's coming.
Yet you are forced to live in the kingdom of the devil where there is no Paradise on Earth.
And even if it were true as you say that there shall be in the future a paradise on Earth you will never see it nor will you ever live in it so I guess your faith in a paradise on Earth is just a mirage to make you feel good about it.
Why do you say that people will never see paradise on earth?
Because this Earth is going to be destroyed.
Really? Then what does this Scripture mean?

"A generation is going, and a generation is coming, but the earth remains forever." (Ecclesiastes 1:4)

And what does this mean?

"Evil men will be done away with, but those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:9,29)


;)

RightReason
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Post by RightReason »

[Replying to sorrento]

Wherever Christians imagine paradise to be, I am led to believe that only those in a state of grace will go there when they die and begin a new existence of eternal happiness and bliss.
Yes, beautiful.
This, of course, would mean that those not in a state of grace would, when they die, be destined for an eternity of pain and suffering in some designated place. As I said, that is what I have been led to believe, but I am willing to be corrected.
No, you are correct in that which has been revealed to us.
My question is this, how could those who believe that they would enjoy an eternity of blissful happiness do so if they knew that a dear loved one such as a mother a father a son or daughter, who had not died in a state of grace, was suffering eternal torment? Is memory loss part of the deal?
This is a wonderful question and one that I can’t completely wrap my head around either. Here is what one Catholic theologian has to say, which I think is helpful. It is much longer than what I am citing, so feel free to click on link for full response . . . .


********

Will we feel sorrow in heaven for those in hell?

To solve this problem let us look at the greatest suffering, that which is made possible by love. The more you love, the more you can suffer. That fact creates the following problem: Does God the Father suffer? The affirmative answer to that question has been declared a heresy (Patripassianism);[40] yet how can God love us, and remain aloof and invulnerable?

The dilemma, then, is this: If God cannot suffer, how can He really love us? But if He can suffer, how is He God? To answer this question would also be to answer the question of whether and how we can suffer in Heaven, for Heavenly children resemble their Heavenly Father.

The answer requires us to distinguish between two ingredients of earthly love and caring, an active and a passive ingredient, that are together in fact but distinguishable in thought. Say a parent loves a child who has done something harmful to himself. The parent's love speaks two words to the child. The first word, the word of active caring for the other, says, "How could you do this to yourself ? " The second word, the word of passivity and vulnerability, says, "How could you do this to me?" God loves us with the first love only, and the blessed in Heaven will love as God loves. We cannot blackmail God. We cannot make Him wring His hands by holding our breath until we turn blue in the face.[42] He truly loves and cares, yet He is invulnerable not by being aloof but by being supremely active, not passive.[43]

If our spirits are similar enough to God, we too can love without sorrow or vulnerability because we love only with the active feeling of caring, not the passive feeling of being hurt. For our spirits then are not controlled by our bodies, by heredity and environment. C. S. Lewis' experience of his dead wife's presence and love was like that:

It was quite incredibly unemotional . . . . Yet there was an extreme and cheerful intimacy. An intimacy that had not passed through the senses or the emotions at all . . . . Can that intimacy be love itself - always in this life attended with emotion, not because it is itself an emotion, or needs an attendant emotion, but because our animal souls, our nervous systems, our imaginations, have to respond to it in that way? If so, how many preconceptions I must scrap! A society, a communion, of pure intelligences would not be cold, drab and comfortless .... It would, if I have had a glimpse, be well, I'm almost scared at the adjectives I'd have to use. Brisk? cheerful? keen? alert? intense? wide-awake? Above all, solid. Utterly reliable. Firm. There is no nonsense about the dead.

When I say "intellect" I include will. Attention is an act of will. Intelligence in action is will par excellence. What met me was full of resolution.[44]

Yet on the other side of the dilemma, will Heaven lack the greatest of all beauties of earthly art, the beauty of sorrow, of great tragedy? Nothing of value is simply lost in Heaven; all is preserved and transformed. Earthly indicators are to be read (though with caution) as pointers to Heavenly realities.

And on earth, pain and pleasure are strangely akin at their peak, like death and life. When a thing is enormously beautiful, it hurts. What Heavenly fact is imaged in this earthly mystery?

Perhaps the ultimate fact of all, the nature of God, the inner life of the Trinity as a system of self-dying, self-giving.[45]

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cu ... eaven.html

sorrento
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Post by sorrento »

[Replying to post 1134 by PinSeeker]

Thank you for your reply PinSeeker. Being an atheist I don't believe in life after death. Countless people have died, but there is not one shred of evidence that any of them are now living somewhere in either a state of eternal bliss or eternal torment.
Your suggestion that maybe those enjoying paradise might look in a different light at those they loved on earth, who are now suffering torment.
I would hate to think that if I was a believer that I could become a being that could cast aside probably the purest thing a person being can experience, the mutual love and respect of another human being. It seems to be saying, I am in paradise because I am worthy, you are suffering because you are not worthy.
The love I have for my family and friends is unconditional. They don't demand that I love and respect them nor do I demand they love and respect me.
The god Christians believe in demands love and respect, the first two commandments make that very clear, but the love returned is conditional and failing to meet those conditions has dire consequences.
There are many reasons why I have no desire to follow the path of Christianity.
To believe in a being that condemns people to eternal suffering for simply not believing is one of those reasons.
I have my own little paradise right here, right now on earth and until my years are up, that will do for me.

RightReason
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Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 1137 by sorrento]

Thank you for your reply PinSeeker. Being an atheist I don't believe in life after death. Countless people have died, but there is not one shred of evidence that any of them are now living somewhere in either a state of eternal bliss or eternal torment.
Well, there is evidence of testimony of your fellow man. There are several accounts of people on earth seeing people in heaven, hell, and purgatory. It is also revealed to us in Sacred Scripture, which is a pretty amazing book given to us by a pretty miraculous movement. You basically have a small group of men over 2000 years ago who way before the printing press was even invented managed to continue to spread its message and grow its mission, with now it being on every single continent, in every nation and country on the map. That’s quite remarkable in itself.

But yes, if it is natural science evidence you are looking for, it is difficult to measure the supernatural via scientific means so you will never have the evidence you demand.

Your suggestion that maybe those enjoying paradise might look in a different light at those they loved on earth, who are now suffering torment.
I would hate to think that if I was a believer that I could become a being that could cast aside probably the purest thing a person being can experience, the mutual love and respect of another human being.
But believers and non believers do this all the time, even in the world right now. Often we do not show the other mutual love and respect. We see it especially in things like murder, racism, and abortion, but in many other ways too.

However, maybe your point is that once we can see things the way they really are after we die and aren’t clouded by our prejudices/pre conceived notions, and or emotions/feelings how could we possibly be ok with someone we knew on earth suffering torment. If this is the case, maybe that is precisely why/how we could understand it. Maybe then, we will see things as God does. Maybe then we see the individual for who they really are and see that in fact they rejected God and are not interested in the love He is offering them.

It seems to be saying, I am in paradise because I am worthy, you are suffering because you are not worthy.
None of us are worthy. And some believe if a person doesn’t make it to heaven, it is because he is the one assuming he is worthy of heaven and isn’t willing to admit/acknowledge/let go of those things that are keeping him from going there. We might have to let go of thinking things like, “We are owed this!� or “That’s not fair!� or “I deserve that!� or “I will not serve!�
The love I have for my family and friends is unconditional. They don't demand that I love and respect them nor do I demand they love and respect me.
But you do love and respect them, right? What if you had a friend or family member who didn’t want your love? What if they wanted nothing to do with you? Will you force them to come to your house and stay with you? And what if you did bring them into your home and they did not show you or others you love respect? Would you not tell them they are welcome, but only if they respect you and your home? Is that not fair/just?

The god Christians believe in demands love and respect

And He deserves it by right of His divinity.

In a sense, just being a human being a person demands love and respect and should get it. There is nothing unjust about that. It is quite beautiful and fitting.


[quote
There are many reasons why I have no desire to follow the path of Christianity.
To believe in a being that condemns people to eternal suffering for simply not believing is one of those reasons. [/quote]

I would say that really isn’t getting it. I would suggest what you are saying makes a nice rationalization to reject Christianity, but is not a very well thought out excuse. There are too many factors you are not considering. I think whether you get to heaven will in fact be based on how you loved on this earth, so perhaps you will be in good shape. “Whatever you have done to the least of my brothers, you have done unto me.� When we are able to start treating each other with love, respect, and unconditional love, then we are seeing Christ in the other (whether we realize it or not). But the more we do this, the more we also see how much deeper still we could go. Maybe we do not now see clearly how much our sins offend/hurt God, our Father and creator. Like any father, He realizes when we sin, we are hurting ourselves. It is making it that much harder for us to see beauty/goodness/truth because we are now clouded in our view and a slave (whether we realize it or not) to our sin. Since God is beauty/truth/love, essentially we are cutting ourselves off from Him – not from His doing, but from our own.

I have my own little paradise right here, right now on earth and until my years are up, that will do for me.
I think you are settling then. I think you are setting yourself up for missing out both here and in the hereafter with that outlook. This world will never be perfect/paradise. This is but a mere stepping stone to knowing true love/joy. Here we get but a taste. The closer one gets to know/understand God in this life, the more one understands that reality. I encourage you to go deeper in your understanding of God. Ask Him to help you get it. I understand it might be difficult to talk to someone you do not believe in, but what do you have to loose. He’ll get it. You can even say, “I think you are a fake. Why should I honor or believe in you?� And then give Him a few days. He can take your doubt, fears, anger, etc. You should at least be able to acknowledge maybe there is something you aren’t fully getting, remaining open to an unexpected encounter with Christ. Would that be so bad?

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