Was Jesus a good son?

[marco]

We are told that Jesus loves us, and presumably loved his mum and dad. Yet any interaction is minimal; did he ever hug his mother or even talk to his father. We don't know. It would seem that Jesus was keen to play down his family. He wasn't the ideal son, but a man who rejected them. Only at the last minute did he leave his mother in the care of somebody else, having caused her endless pain.

We would have expected Jesus to demonstrate admirably the command: Honour thy parents, but there is precious little of honour in him for his mum and dad.

Was Jesus a good son?

Did he break the commandment?

[marco]

Since John was an adult male with his own family business and home and Mary was a woman without means visible means of support, could it be that Jesus was conferring is mother to the care and protection of his friend? (rather than telling his elderly mother to go find a job and get work to financially support in John)? Most normal people have a natural desire to care for their parents as they grow older and are unable to suport themselves.

I hadn't thought of that uncaring aspect of Jesus - his lack of provision for his own mother when he knew he was going away. Most sons would worry about how their mother would feel and cope - but Jesus at the ultimate moment entrusts her to somebody else. "You look after her!" When we remember that this is the man who gave people sight, cured leprosy and deafness.... and he couldn't even provide for his own mother! What a son!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 21 by marco]

Well I'm making the claim here that Jesus statement at his death was a loving act to make provisions for his mothers future well being and that nothing in the exchange indictated neglect or contempt, neither was it a request that Mary took charge of the financial care of John. I'll even go so far as to say it is particularly perverse to suggest otherwise. As I said

It seems particlarly perverse to interpret Jesus words as a placement of an additional burden on Mary rather than a provision for her protection and care.

Would you like to challenge me anything on the above statement?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 21 by marco]

I am unintersted in discussing with self professed infidels theological speculations of what Jesus should have done for his mother after his death, let us just stick to what he actually is recorded as doing and saying and leave the speculative assignment of miracles to TD&D forum.

If you had said Jesus displayed contempt for his mother because he didnt make her a milionaire after he died I doubt if I would have replied to your post at all.

JW

[marco]

Well I'm making the claim here that Jesus statement at his death was a loving act to make provisions for his mothers future well being and that nothing in the exchange indictated neglect or contempt, neither was it a request that Mary took charge of the financial care of John. I'll even go so far as to say it is particularly perverse to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps the expression: Too little, too late applies. In an entire lifetime all you can find are the bare words of a man, punished for criminality, to a grieving mother. He tells somebody else to look after her and we are meant to see this as a shining example of love. In his offloading his filial duties he is at least being consistent with the way he has been reported through the gospels....negligent of his mother.

Incidentally, where are the magical words of love? Was he above expressing emotion or just too cold?

[marco]

[Replying to post 21 by marco]

I am unintersted in discussing with self professed infidels theological speculations of what Jesus should have done for his mother after his death.

No, this infidel is discussing the absence of provision before the man died. You correctly brought to our attention that Jesus handed over his duties to somebody else; you described how Mary might be destitute; and this would be because her son was too self-preoccupied to bother about her.

The important word in Christ's speeches is the personal pronoun: "I". The statement that rightly roused the indignation of pious Jews was: "Before Abraham was, I am." Sadly in that little pronoun there's no room for anyone else. One wonders in what way Jesus was a blessing to his parents: one neglected, the other rejected in favour of a more romantic vision of divine fatherhood.

[JehovahsWitness]

Well I'm making the claim here that Jesus statement at his death was a loving act to make provisions for his mothers future well being and that nothing in the exchange indictated neglect or contempt, neither was it a request that Mary took charge of the financial care of John. I'll even go so far as to say it is particularly perverse to suggest otherwise.

Perhaps the expression: Too little, too late applies.

Too little of what? Are you suggesting Jesus dying request was in fact a gesture of care but it was too little? I ask because your previous position was that it was an act of contempt. Are you suggesting it was not enough contempt or are you in fact reversing your position that he was indeed showing regard for his mother (but in your opinion, good as it was, it was not enough)?


Please clarify.

(Preferably without suggesting I lack intelligence or the ability to understand English. If you wish to refer to Zeus or say something in Latin feel free)

[Elijah John]

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
Jesus tried to claim he was God.
John 10:33 "We are not stoning You for any good work, " said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, Because You, Who are a man, Declare Yourself to be God. "

Jesus didnt declare that he is God. Jesus said:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

2. You shall not make idols.
Jesus made a covenant with a cup.
Luke 22:20 In the same way, After supper He took the cup, Saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, Which is poured out for you.

I really dont see how that would be idolatry. The cup is not worshiped and it is not a god.

3. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Jesus said every word he spoke came from God. Unless God too was as incoherent as Jesus. God in the OT never spoke in parables. His orders were clear and direct.
Luke 18:34 But the disciples did not understand any of these things. The meaning was hidden from them, And they did not comprehend what He was saying.

If some people didnt understand some things, it doesnt mean it was in vain.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, To keep it holy.
Jesus broke the sabbath.
Pharisees accused Him of breaking the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10; Mark 3:2, John 9:14-16).

Jesus was accused, but he didnt break it.

5. Honour your father and your mother.
Jesus tried to destroy the traditional family.
Matthew 10:35 For I have come to turn ""a man against his father, A daughter against her mother, A daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"

Jesus didnt trie to destroy families. He told the good message and knew that it will cause problems. The message is till good and it was good that Jesus declared it, even though many hate it and people who believe it.

6. You shall not murder.
Jesus murdered the truth.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. "
Yet he spent his entire ministry condemning the very people he was sent to save.

Truth cant be murdered. Jesus didnt condemn those to whom he was sent.

7. You shall not commit adultery.
Jesus was unfaithful to God and his disciples. He left them to die even though he was given all authority over heaven and earth.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

Adultery usually means that one is unfaithful to his wife, I dont think Jesus was unfaithful to his wife and not even to God or his disciples. I believe disciples of Jesus still live, even if their body has died. In Biblical point of view this "life" is not meant to last forever, this is only like short lesson and those who are righteous can have eternal life with God.

8. You shall not steal.
Jesus stole the words of the prophets before him and claimed they pointed to him.
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.
Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, Explaining from all the Scriptures. . . And Jesus explained to them what was said about himself in all the Scriptures, Beginning with the books of Moses and the writings of all the prophets".

Jesus didnt steal and he was correct about the prophets.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Jesus accused God of betraying and forsaking him on the cross.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, Lema sabachthani? " which means, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me? "

Interesting thing is, is that correct translation, because according to the Bible, those who were near said:

Some of them who stood there, when they heard it, said, "This man is calling Elijah."
Matt. 27-47

But, if we think Jesus was asking why God has forsaken him, it is not false accusation. It is possible that Jesus felt he was forsaken. Jesus told that God dwells in him and maybe at the moment when he was dying God was not really in him.

10. You shall not covet.
Jesus suffered from a messiah complex and coveted the title messiah/Christ/Anointed one.
John 17:1 After Jesus said this, He looked toward heaven and prayed:
"Father, The hour has come. Glorify your Son, That your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, The only true God, And Jesus Christ, Whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, Glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began

I dont think Jesus coveted to be Messiah. He is Messiah and I think it comes clear from what the Bible tells.

It is interesting why do you need to make false accusations of Jesus, even though you clearly dont know much.

Moderator Comment

Though it is a real stretch to see or consider some of these as violations by Jesus, it is best not to make assumptions about the level of knowledge of a fellow debater .

Please review the Rules.


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[Mithrae]

In Mark 15:40, 15:47 and 16:1 Mary is not even called the mother of Jesus, but of his brothers James and Joseph. Charitably, and since she and others evidently followed him to Jerusalem, we might suppose that this doesn't indicate an ongoing estrangement hinted at in chapter 3, but rather a more theological point that Jesus (in the author's view) was not merely a human son of a woman or conversely that Mary decidedly was not the 'Mother of God' some later sects began to insist.

But by implication the crucifixion scene in John's gospel (the one most obviously and singularly interested in theological points rather than historical details) most likely carries the same significance; that Mary ceased being the mother of Christ when he died. Not necessarily a touching concern for Mary's wellbeing, simply a theological formality.

[marco]

Too little of what? Are you suggesting Jesus dying request was in fact a gesture of care but it was too little? I ask because your previous position was that it was an act of contempt.

My previous position was that Jesus regularly showed contempt UNTIL...

"There's no nice word for Mary UNTIL she's weeping beneath his self-imposed cross..."

You have just misunderstood and I make no comment as to why.

I appreciate it is not a pleasant task to defend the indefensible but please don't shoot the messenger, as did Cyrus the Great when bad news was delivered to him. I am merely reporting what the gospels say.

[marco]

Mary ceased being the mother of Christ when he died. Not necessarily a touching concern for Mary's wellbeing, simply a theological formality.

In which case she should earn the reader's sympathy. If Jesus was genuine, heaven is a rather cold, austere place, home for those ministers who seldom smile and who frown on music. If Jesus was deluded, then Mary must have suffered. Worse still would be the suffering of Joseph, completely shut off from paternity.

We get a glimpse into her life when she is addressed by Jesus in the Temple as if she's some low human, far removed from his ethereal Father.

The famous emotional sentence - "Jesus wept" - is not for Mary or his dead real father, but somebody else. God knows how the poor woman suffered in the thirty years we are denied access to; probably just as well. Mary receives compensatory honour by the RC Church, but I suspect she is far, far beyond appreciating it.