Is Jehovah Really

[William]

Is Jehovah really the Nazi King people image him to be?

You know - the OT idea of God as a male creator fixated on perfecting the human species through the process of the human evolution, and all the good bad and ugly associated with that.

I often think about the rise of the Nazi and see that the event had major consequences on the western mind-set (psyche) to which it is seldom spoken about in terms which help us understand ourselves and our ideas of GOD, even as displayed in the imagery of the OT God-concept.

Are we being a little hard on ourselves in relation to our general self/other-perceptions and is this hardness brought about because we are too afraid to see the ugly face to face and this consistent inherent lack of bravery only serves to increase our fearfulness, as a species?

Will our ongoing circumstances force us to face our self and its accompanying imagery of God in a way which neither dies out and both transform?

Is it the nature of sin to be stupid? Is to be stupid inevitably death? - A thing which science is attempting to breed out of us? Certainly such is on the table...

Perhaps the best course is to learn how to look at all things without the judgement of 'good' or 'evil' as seen through its hazy lens, and just face what is obvious with the same amount of focus as on what isn't.

In that way, perhaps the merging of the two can be accomplished and stupid can become more cleaver as a consequence.

Q: What if Jehovah was actually real but has not been portrayed as [he] actually really is?

The question of itself leads to many others, if one can hear it without the existing attachments to the character adding their bias.

Not for the fainthearted or the stupid.

Or:

Q: Is the character depicted, a true representation of what a GOD would actually BE like, given what we already now know about the universe we exist within?

Again, not for the fainthearted or the stupid.

[William]

[Replying to post 10 by Divine Insight]

If a God exists that created our entire universe and it is "monotheistic" (i.e. all alone prior to having created anything else), then it would definitely be an 'it' as far as any human concept is concerned.

I think that this is a reasonable understanding to have.

Male and female are definitely human traits whether we're talking about physical biology or gender identity. It would be meaningless for a God to have a "gender identity" if it is a monotheistic entity.

Indeed. The only way the GOD could have any form to identify with would be to enter the form and experience the form as an identity, while not retaining any prior memory of existence.

If God is "polytheistic" then perhaps the Gods might have sex and gender. Perhaps they even procreate. Who could guess?

Well there are stories of course.

There is no reason why an absolute monotheistic GOD could not experience polytheistic realities as non-absolute (impermanent) creations.

Surely you can see where your thread title suggesting that the name of God is "Jehovah" would cause anyone to think that you already have a specific God in mind.

That was my intention. I did not hide that intention.

If I asked you, "Is Zeus really,..." you would no doubt conclude that I must be talking about the God referenced in Greek mythology.

This is why I wrote in post #5 in reply to rikuoamero

I could extend the question to include all ideas of GOD, but the purpose of the thread is not to discuss any new idea of a GOD (blank slate as you wrote) but the idea that a GOD exists which could be responsible for why ideas of GOD (new or not) exist, and the focus is on the most popular idea of GOD which humans have, and whether the idea of that GOD aligns with those things which are commonly claimed about the GOD, from both camps and in relation to the reality of this universe specific to life on earth.

and repeated this again in post #7 in reply to you;

I could extend the question to include all ideas of GOD, but the purpose of the thread is not to discuss any new idea of a GOD or another religions idea of GOD but the idea that a GOD exists which could be responsible for why ideas of GOD (new or not, Christian or otherwise) exist, and the focus is on the most popular idea of GOD which humans have, and whether the idea of that GOD aligns with those things which are commonly claimed about the GOD, from both camps and in relation to the reality of this universe specific to life on earth.

As to your apparent main question:

Q: If GOD exists, and if this universe reflects the nature of that GOD, what would the nature of that GOD be?

I would suggest that Buddhism has already modeled a God concept based on this approach. I would even suggest that they did a fairly decent job of creating a plausible idea of what a God would need to be like.

What does this tell the reader about the biblical idea of GOD in relation to the OP blurb?

There really isn't even any good reason to think that our universe would reflect the nature of a God if it did exist.

The OP blurb is asking the question based on the premise that it does.

The creator God could be quite different from the universe it actually creates. So while that might seem like a good place to start, there's really no sound reason to think that this would be any better than just sitting back and imagining a God from scratch in pure imagination.

This is specifically why I included the question in the OP blurb;

Are we being a little hard on ourselves in relation to our general self/other-perceptions and is this hardness brought about because we are too afraid to see the ugly face to face and this consistent inherent lack of bravery only serves to increase our fearfulness, as a species?

That 'comfort zone' I mentioned in post #4;

Of course, if neither you or DI are up for it, that is fair enough. As the blurb suggests, comfort zones are important to folk.

and clarified in post #6 after your question "What in the world would this have to do with anyone's "comfort zones"?"

Are you comfortable expressing your contempt for the biblical idea of GOD DI? If so, then that is a 'comfort zone'.

and again;

The thread topic is not about arguing whether secularism is true or makes the most sense of all. It is specific to the idea that IF there is a Creator GOD, does the biblical idea of GOD fit with the nature of this universe in general and with life on earth specifically and in that, what ideas about that GOD might fit and which might not.

So again, the idea that;

The creator God could be quite different from the universe it actually creates.

is neither here nor there in relation to the OP blurb.

The thread topic is not about arguing whether secularism is true or makes the most sense of all.

Perhaps not, but if we're going to philosophize why not cover all the bases?

I understand your desire to want this to be the case, and of course you can start a thread specific to secularism if you want to, but -as the OP blurb clearly shows - it is not the intention of this thread to go off on any such tangents.

Well, my position on this is pretty well-known. If the Creator God fits in with the Biblical idea of God then our Creator God has about the same mentality as ancient barbaric male-chauvinist men who seem to think that punishing people is the only way to teach anyone anything, and that enslaving or committing genocide on other cultures is cool.

Which is part of what this thread is created to examine;

From the OP blurb;

Is Jehovah really the Nazi King people image him to be?

You know - the OT idea of God as a male creator fixated on perfecting the human species through the process of the human evolution, and all the good bad and ugly associated with that.

I often think about the rise of the Nazi and see that the event had major consequences on the western mind-set (psyche) to which it is seldom spoken about in terms which help us understand ourselves and our ideas of GOD, even as displayed in the imagery of the OT God-concept.

The idea of creating this thread came about in relation to another post I made in the "Did the Loving Jesus Flood Our Planet ...?" thread..from that post which was a reply to this;

[Replying to post 20 by rikuoamero]

IMHO, it's the brainwashing of "faith" that causes even the most capable of minds to accept this as "justice".

Yes, that and the fact the faithful are convinced they are on the winning side.

As long as the justice is going to be exercised against the "other", there isn't much motivation to be concerned.

It's the other's fault of course, for some reason or another.

My reply;

This reminds me of Nazi Germany and the push by biological scientists to create the perfect human over a thousand years by breeding out the imperfections of human traits recognized as counter-productive.

In that, we have an idea of a Creator-GOD whom is in the process of using the process of biological evolution in order to create through said process 'the perfect human' and in the myth of Noah this amounted to one individual among the multitude who was 'up to standard' or at least showed promise.

Obviously the myth of saving of Noah did not substantially change anything in the real world.

Such requires a more hands on approach to which the scientist are still faithfully pursuing with the idea of eradicating all human flaws. Although perhaps creating AI is understood as the better option which might return the best results.

Point being, this idea is not restricted to religious thinking. It seems to be a strong human trait, perhaps based upon the belief in something called 'perfect' coupled with a situation not seen as particularly ideal, let alone perfect.

The eye of the beholder is a widely varied and the evidence suggests that regardless of the social vehicle being used for the purpose, the push will continue in the direction it has been focused upon with little in the way of real opposition.

And from the OP of this thread;

Will our ongoing circumstances force us to face our self and its accompanying imagery of God in a way which neither dies out and both transform?

This, because it appears to me that while all the finger pointing and accompanying arguments/debates continues...

UN Says Climate Genocide Is Coming. It’s Actually Worse Than That.

[Click the heading to link to the article.]

Hench why I want to keep the thread topic from going off on those other tangents you argue for.

What about all the more civilized and intelligent humans then? How did they come to be if our creator is a low-life barbarian? Most modern day humans would be superior to our creator in that case. That doesn't seem right.

I agree with this. Essentially this is why I want to explore the idea in the format the OP blurb is focused upon, with any who feel that they can do so.

If you are not one such person, I completely understand. But if you decide to participate, then please do address the context of my posts which I have already replied to in relation to that which is relevant to the OP blurb.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Let's say that I build a robot alligator. I design it to look and act just like a real alligator. I program it to attack and devour anything that moves. Then I set it loose into the world.

The robot alligator eventually encounters a human child playing by the edge of the water. The child is moving so the alligator attacks the child and devours the child. Authorities just happen to see the whole event and capture the robot alligator. They quickly discover that it is indeed a robot and not a real alligator. They also discover that I am the one who designed it, built it, programmed it, and set it loose where it could potentially harm humans.

What do you think would happen to me? I would instantly be arrested of course, and viewed as a heinous criminal who had done a very bad thing indeed. I would most likely get life imprisonment or worse.

But just look around at the real world and the real alligators. If the world was created by a God then God has done precisely what I described above. God designed and created alligators that are programmed to attack and eat anything that moves, including humans.

So why is it that, as a human, if I create an alligator and set it loose in the world I am considered to be a heinous criminal, but it's perfectly fine for a God to do precisely the same thing?

viewtopic.php?p=939314#939314

Related to the topic;
Post #33 in the "Problems with the Problem of Pain"
As I understand it, we are all aspects of GOD so if there is indeed a general rejection of the notion of helping others who are less fortunately placed in this world, the idea that "GOD ignores it so why shouldn't we do the same?" seems reasonable.

And - if we are indeed aspects of GOD - then yes, we are 'GOD ignoring the problem which we can do something about.'

The convenience of separating GOD from 'the problem of evil' has its drawbacks when coupled with the idea that GOD is indeed, separate from humans specifically, and nature in general.

Historical evidence shows us plainly enough that this type of thinking is detrimental to humanity specifically, and nature in general.

and;

Post #86 in the "What type of design is this?" thread;

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Given what we now know ourselves about the universe, the story itself is the source of the lack of intelligent reasoning.

Willum nailed it when he wrote;

Post# 80; Seems like an intelligent design where the assumptions of foolish mortals are not anything like the intentions of the creator.

We should probably reverse engineer what is allegedly observed to glean the intent of this intelligence.