Rules for thee, but not for Me....did Jesus really pay the price?

[Ozzy_O]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

[Tcg]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

[Shem Yoshi]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors and we can take analysis of the brain and the chemicals that are at play. NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead a lot of the time.. We should let the evidence point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

[Tcg]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

[Shem Yoshi]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

[JehovahsWitness]

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

Biblically speaking the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture.

EZEKIEL 18:20 - New King James Version

The soul who sins shall die. [...]

If the penalty for sin was an eternity of being tortured, Christ could NOT have paid the price for sin since he was NOT tortured eternally.



Logic





JEHOVAHS WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SIN , WHAT HAPPENS AT DEATH and ... NDE*

*Near Death Experiences

[1213]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

I think it would be good to notice first few things from the Bible:

1) Death is the result of sin.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

2) Hell is a place where person is utterly destroyed. There is no reason to think one that is destroyed can do or feel anything ever, therefore it is eternal punishment, there is no coming back after one is totally destroyed.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

3) Sins can be forgiven without anyone dying.
The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

4) Disciples of Jesus have right to forgive sins.
Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

5) The reason why Jesus died was that so he could be the Lord of dead and living.
For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

By what the Bible says, Jesus was not in hell. "He died because of our sins" means this: He came on earth to declare the good news, forgiveness of sins. The reason why he came was the sins of humans. And because he declared the forgiveness, people murdered him, which is why it can be said "he died because of the sins of people". It can be compared to a soldier who "sacrifices" his life defending his country. Jesus used his life for our benefit and was killed because of that, which is why he can be called a sacrifice. But, as the Bible shows, it was possible to forgive without him dying.

I don't think hell is a punishment, it is just the end for evil people that would make eternal life miserable eternal suffering for all, if they would live forever. Hell is basically only the end of evil. Or what do you think, would it be nice, if God would allow evil to continue forever?

[Tcg]

That is a great question, and the way I have heard eternity described by multiple sources, is that it is an instant in time, one NDE said when he died he knew what eternity was, opposed to living it one moment at a time he was one with eternity.

None who is able to report an NDE has died. Nothing they experience is evidence of life after death. Beyond that, nothing they report should be taken as a valid prediction of what the future will hold. Those who ingest LSD also have visions. None of these should be taken as authoritative information about reality.


Tcg

I completely disagree. Just because they haven't died completely does not invalidate the evidence and where it leads. Taking LSD might make you see trails and heighten sense of colors, NDE's people meet their dead loved one, experience an after life, meet God, have judgments on their lifes experiences, have OBE's. And they are medically dead most of the time.. We should let the evdience point us to where it leads. It is totally reasonable to believe NDE's are experiencing death like things.

"Death like things" are not death. NDEers do not experience an afterlife. They experience hallucinations which are the result of the extra DMT the body produces during trauma. The psychedelic effects of DMT are in fact quite similar to those of LSD and are quite clearly the cause of these experiences. This is in fact were the evidence leads.


Tcg

I'll let people judge for themselves I dont even feel like I need to have this debate.

You don't if you can't provide evidence of the afterlife that are stronger than discussing "death like things." Now, if you want to dispute the fact that our bodies produce DMT and that DMT is a strong hallucinogenic then perhaps you won't give up just yet.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

I think it would be good to notice first few things from the Bible:

1) Death is the result of sin.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

2) Hell is a place where person is utterly destroyed. There is no reason to think one that is destroyed can do or feel anything ever, therefore it is eternal punishment, there is no coming back after one is totally destroyed.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

3) Sins can be forgiven without anyone dying.
The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

4) Disciples of Jesus have right to forgive sins.
Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

5) The reason why Jesus died was that so he could be the Lord of dead and living.
For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

By what the Bible says, Jesus was not in hell. "He died because of our sins" means this: He came on earth to declare the good news, forgiveness of sins. The reason why he came was the sins of humans. And because he declared the forgiveness, people murdered him, which is why it can be said "he died because of the sins of people". It can be compared to a soldier who "sacrifices" his life defending his country. Jesus used his life for our benefit and was killed because of that, which is why he can be called a sacrifice. But, as the Bible shows, it was possible to forgive without him dying.

I don't think hell is a punishment, it is just the end for evil people that would make eternal life miserable eternal suffering for all, if they would live forever. Hell is basically only the end of evil. Or what do you think, would it be nice, if God would allow evil to continue forever?

Those are pretty good arguments based on what the Bible actually says. I think we have to distinguish between the death of Jesus and the death of humans. One might say that Jesus entered the system, not to work with the system, but to change the system.

Evidently because of that blasted apple, everyone was going to be destroyed in Hell. Once or repeatedly isn't clear And I'll leave you JW to bring up Gehenna,

The topic really is, was Jesus death and resurrection a valid effort to make a loophole in Sin - death? I know that God can do as He likes but then, he could have made a loophole in Sin - death just if Jesus waxed his car.. It all seems to be curiously symbolic - not a real sacrifice, but like paying a dollar to take over a film company. It's a game....but a nasty game.

Dark Matter did an animation of Santa coming to bring the toys to all the Good little girls and boys, but he first had to give his assistant Elf a darn good bricking before he was allowed to do it.

This points up the problem with the whole scenario. It just doesn't make sense, even if God can do anything. And that's not the first time I've found myself thinking that about the Bible.,

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

[benchwarmer]

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

Biblically speaking the penalty for sin is death, not eternal torture.

Ummm... So why do we need Jesus then? We all die, so by your logic we all pay the price necessary.

How is what Jesus paid different or necessary?

"Jesus died so we don't have to" no longer makes sense. Jesus died temporarily and is not currently dead according to Christians. At best, Jesus had a very rough few days then gets to spend eternity in heaven. There are children in cancer wards that have likely endured more pain and suffering than Jesus did and some of them eventually die after a short life too (much shorter than Jesus's). It's unlikely most of these children committed any sin other than being born 'under Adam's sin' (which is also ridiculous by the way).

Any way you slice it, it makes no sense. At the end of the day, the basic highlight of the story seems to be that God sacrificed Himself to Himself by temporarily being dead so that He can be appeased and not kill/torture (depending on your flavor of Christianity) everyone who He created into original sin after Adam.