The Total Lunar Tetrads Tell Us When Jesus Returns

[lvdyou]

Jesus was cursing the fig tree for having no leaves representing Israel for having no life after all He has done for them. In Matt. 24.33 Jesus says His return is "very near" after Israel becomes a nation again, branches beginning to bud (v.32), so within a lifetime of 75 years (Ps. 90.10) from 1948. No later than 2023! The 7-year Tribulation can't start any later than 2016. Jesus said the disciples could not know when He returns prior to Israel a nation again.

We are also told to look for signs in the cosmos for when the Tribulation starts. In the 6th seal, Rev. 6.12 (cf. Joel 2.31, Acts 2.20) says 3 things must occur before the Tribulation starts since the 7th seal opens up the very loud 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. The first rapture according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) is "before the throne" (7.9) in 3rd heaven before the 1st trumpet (8.7) commences the Tribulation. The resurrection is at the start of the last trumpet (11.15) which is the harvest (14.14-16) to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4.14-18).

"When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood"(Rev. 6.12).

First, a great earthquake! The second greatest number of deaths occurred in Haiti 2010 and the most per capita, 1 in 27 people. The 4th or 5th greatest in magnitude occurred in Japan 2011 and was the greatest financial loss. Never before in history have two earthquakes of such massive proportions occurred back to back, year over year.

Second, a black sackcloth solar eclipse! There are 4 kinds of solar eclipses. The rarest is the Hybrid occurring about 5% of the time. There are 3 kinds of Hybrids, the rarest being the H3 about 5% of the time which finishes off as a total eclipse to produce that black sackcloth effect. The 4th long H3 since Christ is Nov. 3, 2013. It won't happen again till 2172.

Third, a red blood moon lunar eclipse! The rarest kind of lunar eclipse is the lunar tetrad. A tetrad is when there are 4 red blood moon total eclipses in a row. And it is even rarer when it lands on passover, tabernacles, and again on passover and tabernacles. Passover is the first of Israel's seven feasts representing atonement. And Tabernacles is the last feast pointing to the future millennial kingdom. The 6th Total Lunar Tetrad since Christ was 1949/50. Israel became a nation May 14, 1948 and signed the Armistice treaties in 1949. The 7th feast Tetrad was 1967/68. Israel took over Jerusalem June 7, 1967. This is the first time in history two feast Tetrads were this close 18 years apart. The 8th Tetrad is 2014/15 and won't happen again for nearly 600 years, 2582/83. There is no unique solar eclipse next to that Tetrad way off into the future. As a double fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy, it would take seven sets of seven years from the declaration to rebuild the Temple for it to be completed. This is 17,640 days or 360 days/yr x 7 sets of 7 years (Dan. 9.25). From June 7, 1967 to Sept. 23, 2015 is also 17,460 days. This day happens to be the Day of Atonement which is 10 days after the first rapture Feast of Trumpets.

Considering these undeniable facts, the Tribulation can't start before 2015 either. Next, we need a 2,520 day period for the Tribulation since all of Daniel's sixty-nine sevens are 2,520 days each. 2,520 is the smallest number divisible by all numbers 2 to 10 as Daniel's basic working prophetic unit. This is triply confirmed since Jesus was "cut off" (Dan. 9.26) after 69 sets of seven years or 173,880 days from the declaration to rebuild the temple Nisan 1, 444 BC (Neh. 2.1). This takes us to Nisan 10, Monday, Mar. 28, 33 AD (Gregorian), the day Jesus entered Jerusalem-the first day of the four day inspection of the lamb. The 4 day inspection was Mar. 28, 29, 30, 31. Jesus was captured on Thursday, Mar. 31 then He died on the cross Nisan 14, Passover, Friday, April 1, 33 AD what Satan calls April Fool's Day. The first 4 feasts refer to atonement, Jesus set apart for three days, His resurrection, and giving the Holy Spirit. Since the last 3 feasts pertain to Jesus' second coming (rapture, salvation, millennium) and the first of those feasts deals with the first rapture (Rev. 7.9), the 2,520 day period must count down from Feast of Trumpets. There is no holiday on the 2,520th day in 2023 from Feast of Trumpets in 2016.

The 2,520th day from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 takes us to Sunday Aug. 7, 2022. Yet I could find no holiday on that day either until I realized when Tisha B'Av falls on a Saturday it is held the day after instead. So is the case in 2022. Tisha B'Av was when the 1st and 2nd Temples were destroyed. This is of great significance because Jesus returns to reign in the 3rd Temple (2 Thess. 2.4, Rev. 11.2) for 1000 years (20.2-7) over the nations with His overcomers (2.26, 20.4-6) and a rod of iron (12.5). He returns with 10,000 of His overcomers (Jude 14,15)-the 5 wise virgins (Matt. 25.1-13). The 5 unwise virgins though saved and have eternal life which can never be lost (John 10.28) would not be included in the first rapture nor the return to reign during the 1000 years. They would be resurrected at last trumpet. This is accountability for Christians to "overcometh" mentioned 7 times in Rev. 2 & 3. Christians all overcome but not at the same time. Many Christians prefer to be tied down to the world like a balloon unwilling to be released so they shall lose this reward by being cast into outer darkness, outside the light of reward of reigning with Christ during the millennium.

Outer darkness is like being in the forest and seeing a beautifully lit cabin but not allowed to enter it until the occupants come out to take them to the mansion. Or it is like painting a house, but if you are sloppy with the paint getting it all over yourself, you will need to remove it with some solvent like gasoline which stings before you can enter the shower.

The polling system is messed up. It excluded my 5th option of "Possibly < 50%"

[Mithrae]

I'm curious about the betting on whether Jesus will return and supposition about what lvdyou will do/say if he doesn't. Do these posts qualify as 'debate' under the forum rules? Not that I object, since the thread has certainly been kept alive Just curious, in the midst of all the speculation and gambling, whether or not lvdyou is in fact correct in saying that no-one has yet refuted his points in the OP?

I may simply be repeating below what has already been posted, since I haven't read the whole thread. But the gist of what I've seen is that random readers of the thread would have lvdyou's impressive claims on one hand, apparently unrefuted, and on the other comments about failed expectations and wagering that it won't happen. Who wins the argument, I wonder?

I lost interest after the first few pages, and I've only read the last three pages now so I'm not sure if anyone's covered this yet. If not it's probably worth posting. Using NASA's information on lunar eclipses and a Jewish calendar calculator:

1949/50 Lunar tetrad
1949 Apr 13, 04:11:25 - Erev Pesach (eve of Passover, I believe)
1949 Oct 07, 02:56:55 - Erev Sukkot
1950 Apr 02, 20:44:34 - Pesach I
1950 Sep 26, 04:17:11 - Sukkot I . . . . . . . . . . [snip]

I figure one holiday within a tetrad can be more or less ignored as coincidence, especially since there's quite a few with no holidays. Pesach Sheni doesn't seem to be an actual holiday in itself; so if we ignore that, it means that of our 17 tetrads there are 5 which include two Jewish holidays, and only 1 which includes three holidays. In other words, of the 14 besides our three, none have four holidays (of any type), 6 have two or three holidays and 4 of them have no holidays (not even Pesach Sheni). Then there's our three which cover four holidays, in an almost consistent Pesach/Sukkot pattern; the two gone by having begun in years rather significant to Israel's history.

Whether this might mean anything regarding the next tetrad is obviously for the individual to decide, but I figure a few actual, referenced facts can't hurt. Let me know if I've made any mistakes

The 'H3 hybrid solar eclipses' mentioned in the OP don't seem to fare so well, at a cursory glance. Googling H3 hybrid eclipse yields in the top 10 results Wiki pages on Solar Eclipse and the 3/11/2013 eclipse (neither of which appear to contain 'H3' at all), and eight pages expressing the same theory as the OP. Googling H3 "solar eclipse" gives 9 pages with the OP theory and an astrology page in which H3 is the html code for heading size three (might explain the Wiki pages above).

As far as hybrid eclipses go, these are the numbers which have occurred/will occur by century:
1700s - 19
1800s - 15
1900s - 6
2000s - 7
2100s - 4
2200s - 3
2200s - 8

[postroad]

I had already shown that Jesus made a false prediction of an imminent return as recorded in Revelation.

lvdyou just ignored that post. So???

[Paradigm]

• Shamayim (×�‎שמי‎ literally "sky" in Hebrew), "the heights", was an important concept in the religions and...
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamayim
  
  
  dictionary.babylon.com/shamayim/
  Shamayim (Hebrew) Shemayim (Chaldean) Dual of "the heavens"; in the Qabbalah, the celestial world of the stars, sun, planets, and moon. "The real meaning ...
  
  
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_(Judaism)
  Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky. "Shamayim" is a crucial concept in the Bible. There are at least three ...

So sky then?

What point are you trying to make here?

There are three Heavens (Shamayim) in Hebrew lore, as I am sure you would know had you given more than a cursory glance at the results of your search. The first Heaven is is the Earth's atmosphere where birds fly and clouds form. The second is the celestial heaven, where the sun, moon and stars and other celestial bodies abide, a.k.a outer space. The third Heaven is the dwelling place of God Himself.

Since God promised Abraham as many descendants as there were stars in the heavens it is clear that He is referring to the second Heaven. The second Heaven contains 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.

Ergo, the prophecy is not yet fulfilled.

Shamayim is the same word found in Genesis 1:1 to describe the heavens, so clearly when we talk about all the stars in shamayim, we are talking about all the stars in creation.

Aye, I've come across that notion before. But you're the one proposing a novel 'literalist' interpretation of the verse, in which circumstance it's customary to supply your own evidence. Instead all you suggested was popping shamayim into Google. So following a consistent approach with my last post, lo and behold; apparently shamayim literally means 'sky.'

Now you instead propose an extended understanding of the word God used in his promise to Isaac, beyond the literal meaning. You understand that we can't just take your word for it that Isaac believed this, of course; could you provide a reference where we can confirm information regarding this 'three heavens' notion in Isaac's time (c2000-1700 BCE)?

Shamayim (�‎שמי‎ literally "sky" in Hebrew), "the heights", was an important concept in the religions and cosmology of the ancient Levant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamayim

שָ�מַיִ�‎ — The heavens, heaven.

Shamayim (Hebrew) Shemayim (Chaldean) Dual of "the heavens"; in the Qabbalah, the celestial world of the stars, sun, planets, and moon. "The real meaning of Sha-mayeem is, that the heavens are made of {Hebrew char} i.e., esh fire, mayeem water; also soo mayeem, the heaven carries the waters" (Myer, Qabbalah 348). As a Hebrew dual form, the heavens were anciently conceived of as dual -- the higher and lower heavens. Nevertheless, it is constantly used likewise to signify heavens in the usual sense of plurality.

Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky.
"Shamayim" is a crucial concept in the Bible. There are at least three different shamayim or "heavens" in the bible: 1) The atmosphere where birds fly and clouds wander above the earth; 2) The heaven where the celestial bodies wander (wandering stars = planets) and stars reside; 3) The heaven where God and "the hosts of heaven" reside (Psalm 90:4; 2Peter 3:8; Isaiah 57:15), also called "paradise," the "heaven of heavens," or in Hebrew shamayi h'shamayim (�‎שמי‎ה‎ שמי) in scripture (cf. Deut 10:14; 1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6, 6:18; Neh 9:6).

All of the results you posted confirm that Shamayim was the Hebrew term for heaven, or more particularly the abiding place of the stars. This is also confirmed by Strong's Concordance 8063.

This being the case, God's promise to Abraham was that he would have as many children as there were stars in the place where stars dwell.

To simplify, we can just go old school with our literalism and look at the King James Version:

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:17

"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." -Genesis 15:5


"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;" - Genesis 26:4

Since there are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars of heaven. The prophecy remains unfulfilled.

[McCulloch]

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:17

Perhaps the metaphoric nature of this prophesy can be inferred by the fact that there are several orders of magnitude difference between the number of stars and the number of grains of sea-shore sand.

[Paradigm]

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:17

Perhaps the metaphoric nature of this prophesy can be inferred by the fact that there are several orders of magnitude difference between the number of stars and the number of grains of sea-shore sand.

And perhaps the metaphoric nature of the creation account can be inferred from the fact that a literal 'day' (the period from sunset to sunset) didn't exist until the fourth metaphoric 'day' of creation. Yet there is no shortage of people who insist that the universe, including planet earth came about complete with plants and trees and whales and people in 6 literal days.

So, returning to our literal understanding of Genesis, the stars promise vs grains of sand promise requires some clever apologetics to reconcile. Perhaps the number of grains of sand will be the total number of descendants alive at one time, whereas the number of stars will be the total number of descendants that ever lived.

Or perhaps the number of grains of sand and the number of stars are exactly equal, and there are simply sea shores on other planets that we have yet to discover that will make up this difference.

[lvdyou]

As I said it is really quite simple. Since Jesus returns within a lifetime of Israel a nation again then the Trib is no later than 2016-2023 (75 years, Ps. 90.10). And since Rev. 6.12 is the events of 2010-15 then Trib can't start before 2015. There are 2,520 days from Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14, 2015 to Tisha B'Av Aug. 7, 2022 and no 2,520 day period for 2016-23.

[postroad]

How are you going to justify yourself when those dates come and go without any fulfilment?

[lvdyou]

How are you going to justify yourself when those dates come and go without any fulfilment?

How are you going to justify yourself when a couple million people vanish Sept. 14, 2015 according Rev. 7.9, 3.10?

It's 100% certain as was proven fully which you present no challenge to.

[Mithrae]

Aye, I've come across that notion before. But you're the one proposing a novel 'literalist' interpretation of the verse, in which circumstance it's customary to supply your own evidence. Instead all you suggested was popping shamayim into Google. So following a consistent approach with my last post, lo and behold; apparently shamayim literally means 'sky.'

Now you instead propose an extended understanding of the word God used in his promise to Isaac, beyond the literal meaning. You understand that we can't just take your word for it that Isaac believed this, of course; could you provide a reference where we can confirm information regarding this 'three heavens' notion in Isaac's time (c2000-1700 BCE)?

Shamayim (�‎שמי‎ literally "sky" in Hebrew), "the heights", was an important concept in the religions and cosmology of the ancient Levant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamayim

שָ�מַיִ�‎ — The heavens, heaven.

Shamayim (Hebrew) Shemayim (Chaldean) Dual of "the heavens"; in the Qabbalah, the celestial world of the stars, sun, planets, and moon. "The real meaning of Sha-mayeem is, that the heavens are made of {Hebrew char} i.e., esh fire, mayeem water; also soo mayeem, the heaven carries the waters" (Myer, Qabbalah 348). As a Hebrew dual form, the heavens were anciently conceived of as dual -- the higher and lower heavens. Nevertheless, it is constantly used likewise to signify heavens in the usual sense of plurality.

Shamayim comes from shameh, a root meaning to be lofty. It literally means the sky.
"Shamayim" is a crucial concept in the Bible. There are at least three different shamayim or "heavens" in the bible: 1) The atmosphere where birds fly and clouds wander above the earth; 2) The heaven where the celestial bodies wander (wandering stars = planets) and stars reside; 3) The heaven where God and "the hosts of heaven" reside (Psalm 90:4; 2Peter 3:8; Isaiah 57:15), also called "paradise," the "heaven of heavens," or in Hebrew shamayi h'shamayim (�‎שמי‎ה‎ שמי) in scripture (cf. Deut 10:14; 1Ki 8:27; 2Ch 2:6, 6:18; Neh 9:6).

All of the results you posted confirm that Shamayim was the Hebrew term for heaven, or more particularly the abiding place of the stars. This is also confirmed by Strong's Concordance 8063.

Again, your first quote says little more than that shamayim 'literally' means sky - and you are, of course, proposing a 'literalist' interpretation here. If you've got a reference source handy which has counted the number of stars in 'heaven,' that first quote may indeed support your position, but so far I'm not seeing it.

The second quote contradicts the claim you've made, since it specifies only two 'heavens.'

The third quote mentions the three heavens you have suggested as the basis for your 'literalist' interpretation of the verse, but even from the bible provides references only for the third 'heaven' - and none of those are from the time of Isaac.

-
You proposed a 'literalist' interpretation of this verse, saying that you "expect the Jewish population will have to have expanded into space before Jesus comes back to Earth." The very first hurdle as I saw it was our understanding of 'sky.' You replied, quite fairly, that we should be looking at the original language rather than English. But I'm not sure you whether you think we should be looking at the original, Isaac-era concepts also.

I rather suspect that you're trying to drag later concepts and uses of the word shamayim into your 'literalist' interpretation. If it comes from a root word meaning 'lofty,' I can easily believe that it literally means sky. Your three heavens notion is looking pretty shaky as the foundation for a 'literalist' interpretation.

This being the case, God's promise to Abraham was that he would have as many children as there were stars in the place where stars dwell.

To simplify, we can just go old school with our literalism and look at the King James Version:

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:17

"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be." -Genesis 15:5


"And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;" - Genesis 26:4

Since there are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars of heaven. The prophecy remains unfulfilled.

Thankyou yes, these are two of the other hurdles to consider. Strangely the KJV may well be more useful in this circumstance than whatever other English translation you originally used for your 'literalist' proof - where yours says "as numerous as" the KJV says "multiply as." According to Strong's concordance the Hebrew word rabah means:

• 1) be or become great, be or become many, be or become much, be or become numerous
  
  a) (Qal)
  
  1) to become many, become numerous, multiply (of people, animals, things)
  
  2) to be or grow great
  
  b) (Piel) to make large, enlarge, increase, become many
  
  c) (Hiphil)
  
  1) to make much, make many, have many
  
  a) to multiply, increase
  
  b) to make much to do, do much in respect of, transgress greatly
  
  c) to increase greatly or exceedingly
  
  2) to make great, enlarge, do much
  
  2) (Qal) to shoot
  
  Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 226
  AV — multiply 74, increase 40, much 29, many 28, more 12, great 8, long 3, store 2, exceedingly 2, greater 2, abundance 2, misc 24

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by a 'literalist' interpretation, but at a guess I'd say that - even granting your so far quite shaky 'three heavens' notion for interpretation - what we should be looking for is not the total number of stars, but rather the rate at which they increase to which Abraham's seed is apparently likened. I'm not sure whether your 'literalist' interpretation requires that we take that in absolute terms or as a percentage (there was only one Abraham to begin with, after all).

Perhaps more importantly, the verse you quoted initially was simply a reiteration to Isaac of God's original promise to Abraham. And as you've posted above, God's promise to Abraham specifically concerned the stars Abraham could see. It's curious that you've posted this as if to support your claim that the English translation of 'sky' - that which is visible of atmosphere and space from the Earth's surface - is inadequate, when it seems quite obvious that this is what God specifically said to Abraham. Again, I'm not certain about the specifics of your 'literalist' hermeneutics, but as far as I can see the actual promise to Abraham (with reference to the stars of course) was that a single individual would not be able to precisely count the number of his descendants without years of careful work.

-
Of course your interest is not in finding a 'literalist' interpretation of this promise; it's an amusing but rather flawed attempt of a counter-example to the 'literalist' interpretations of others. So I guess when push comes to shove my real question for you is: Who are these 'biblical literalists' your attempted counter-example was directed at? In these forums I've seen the term used negatively numerous times, but off the top of my head I don't recall seeing anyone say that they're a biblical literalist. I've known quite a few conservative Christians in my life, and while I didn't gain detailed knowledge regarding all of their theological views, I'm pretty sure not a single one of them applied a blanket literal approach to biblical interpretation.

So, just out of curiousity, could you explain what you meant by "Biblical literalist" in your initial post and how your 'literalist' interpretation of Gen. 26:4 was a valid counter-argument; a "literalist biblical proof" as you called it?

[JoeyKnothead]

How are you going to justify yourself when those dates come and go without any fulfilment?

I propose these "prophesies" - and I use the term loosely - are, as used in this OP, a bald-faced attempt at instilling belief in the unbelievable, and are no more based in reality than there's a man in the moon.

Of course, this won't dissuade many to act to ensure they come true - a proposition I find most horrid.

I propose that on whatever the date is in question, we get drunk out of our minds and start pillagin' and plunderin' - and blame our actions on whatever evil is said to become incarnate at the given date. Then ask Christians to forgive us.