God's violent ways

[OnceConvinced]

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

[SallyF]

If the possibly fictional Jesus character was REALLY "God" with a capital G, then him dying wasn't REALLY a suicide.

"God" knew he was going to trick the Romans into pretending to be duly authorised Jewish priests and make him a human sacrifice to himself, to settle his unsettled emotional state.


He ALSO knew he was only going to PRETEND to be dead for a few days to impress the impressionable …


Because …


TA DA …!!!


He pops back to life like he PLANNED to do all along …!


So it wasn't REALLY a suicide.


It's REALLY a suicide if you aren't "God" in human form …


And you STAY dead.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID JESUS COMMIT SUICIDE?

This would be a commendable defence were the people whom Christ saved as obvious as those spared the exploding grenade...

I don't think it's a matter of defence (just as it's a distraction to analyse the mental health of those that commit suicide) essentially it's a matter of definition.

Definition of SUICIDE
1
a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suicide

The termination of a person's life must come about by his own volition to qualify as a suicide. Putting oneself into a life threatening situation is not suicide; a fire fighter rushing into a burning building deliberately puts himslef in a life threatening situation. The suicide would be if he deliberately takes off his protective gear, douses himself in petrol and runs into a flame. In short, in order to be suicide, there must be an action (or an inaction) over and above the deliberate placing oneself in danger which can be cited as the cause of death. And that action must be under the control of the victim. So the deciding factor is what brought about his death, not how did he get into the situation in the first place or whether it was avoidable.

The death of the Brave General is NOT caused by his signing up in the Military or because he accepted a dangerouse the mission. It wasnt even because he accepted a mission from which he could not possibly survive. The death was caused by a Grenade. If he jumps on the grenade to save his troops, he's not taking his own life, he's putting himself in a life threatening situation (on top of a live granade). While death was more or less guaranteed, the essential action that which brought about his death was the introduction of a live grenade, which was not under the control of the General but whoever ignited and threw it. All the General could do is react to the situation within the confines of his moral code.

STAY OR RUN ?

• The General faced with imminent death, of course has a choice, stay or run away and save himself. But succumbing to avoidable death still does not meet the definition of suicide. One must have introduced and or controllled the cause of death oneself. The person on hunger strike in prison is committing suicide, the conscientious objector starved to death by his captors is not. Even if offered the choice of compromise, the objectors refusal doesn't mean the lack of food is under his control. If it were, he would no doubt choose to be able to not compromise and eat a stake dinner every night. He did not introduce the food restriction nor does he control the conditions under which those restrictions are maintained, thus if he dies of malnutrition, one might reproach him for unrealistic morals but not for committing suicide

Suicide is "self-killing" and in this scenario "the killer" is the Grenade Thrower. Even contesting that the General shouldn't have been there in the first place and if he hadn't accepted such a dangerous mission he'd still be alive today, still doesnt mean he threw the grenade that killed him at himself. In short he was still killed by someone else and cannot be charged with suicide.

CONCLUSION Jesus accepted a mission from which it was guaranteed he would not get out alive. Being capable of avoiding being killed is not the defintion of "suicide", terminating ones his own life is the defintion of suicide. Whether his cause of death was heart failure or blood loss, or shock from hours of torture, it is ludicrous to argue he died at his own hand or caused any of those contributive factors. Thus Jesus didn't bring about his own cause of death so it was not suicide.

JW



RELATED POSTS

Is there a difference between "having someone killed" and accepting a sacrifice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 904#980904

Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

Can Jesus public ministry be viewed as "suicidal behaviour"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 976#980976

[OnceConvinced]

Then may I suggest you don't play any. If you use a particular expression you shoild know what it means and if challenged be able to explain and support uour choice of words. Unless they be a direct quote.

I have already clarified that I use the standard definition of the word "violent":

"using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something."

It seems you and Ted are the only ones who don't wish to go with the standard definition.

This is an excellent forum and there are many posters here are extremely aware of language and how it can be used and abused. They will know the difference for example between "kill" and "murder", "forgive" and "atone" , "atrocities" and "sins" and, in this case, the "to have killed" and to "allow a sacrifice". Knowing the meaning of words and expressions forms the basis of good debate.

Yes, and I would have hoped you would be aware that the meaning of the word "violent" I was referring to in the opening post was the one I have quoted above.

I remain available should you ever choose to actually answer my question, in the meantime I wish you an excellent and productive week,

You should know me well enough by now to know I don't try to dodge questions. Which question are you actually referring to and are you sure I haven't already addressed it?

I would like to apologise if I implied anything negative about you or our readers, that was absolutely not my intention. I appreciate that words are often ambiguous and carry different meanings on which we must all respect there will not always be agreement, this seems to be the case, but I do respect your take on scripture and the words chosen therein.

It's ok. No hard feelings here.

[OnceConvinced]

So are you suggesting that the soldier who throws himself on a grenade (for example) in order to save lives... that soldier is committing suicide?

Well it still is suicide, even though he's saving the life of others.

Don't we hear this a lot? At least on TV and movies.
"That would be suicide!"
Just before someone does something heroic.

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 158 by marco]

The calling of his sheep to him is a confused metaphor. What aspect of sheep is appropriate: their wool or their mutton? A metaphor has meaning if the constituent parts make sense.

That they listen to the voice of their Shepherd and come to Him when He calls them:


[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

(I don't know how to post videos, sorry; if a moderator could fix that for me that would be great).

I like the first video because the analogy is apt in that the sheep respond only to their shepherd's voice. Not to the voice of a stranger. But I particularly like this second one (it did in fact make me tear up just a bit). I don't see any way that the sheep can SEE their shepherd through the mist; they are coming to him because they HEAR his voice calling them to come to Him.





Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Willum]

[Replying to post 163 by tam]

I like the metaphor of the shepherd because if God is devouring your souls through a combination of deceiving you with his words, and counting on you not examining his actions, then he is being completely honest and delightfully ironic.

The good shepherd still eats his flock.

Just remember, God may very well be a demon who asks you to sacrifice the sinful parts of your soul for him to eat.
His used to take ram sacrifices, like a demon.
His actions, turning people to salt, terracide and so on, are certainly not beatific...
Makes a bit of sense, no?

[Zzyzx]

.
I do not understand the appeal of comparing one's self to domestic sheep --

12 Characteristics of Sheep

1. Sheep are foolish I don’t know what sheep would score in an animal IQ, but I think they would be close to the bottom of the scale. They seem to only know how to do one thing well – eat grass (and produce more grass-eating sheep).

It’s possible to know little, yet not be foolish; but not if you are a sheep. They are so irrational. You watch them as they pause in front of a stream. They know they can’t jump it or swim it. So what do they do? They jump in anyway!

2. Sheep are slow to learn Every shepherd will tell you countless stories about how sheep can be taught a very painful lesson, and yet fail to learn the painful lesson. A sheep may get caught in barbed wire trying to break through a fence. And the next day it will try it again, and again,…

3. Sheep are unattractive Some animals may not be very bright, but make up for it with grace and elegance in their movement and actions. But sheep are so awkward, so lacking in agility and dignity. Although some shepherds may tell you differently, to most outside observers sheep are dirty, smelly, and ugly.

4. Sheep are demanding Ever watch a lamb suckle its mother? Almost as soon as it is born, it is violently sucking its mother’s udders. And that insatiable demand never leaves them. They demand grass, grass, and more grass; day after day, and night after night. (Do they ever sleep?) And when snow is on the ground, they aggressively demand food from the shepherd. Just listen to them bleat if their troughs are empty even for a short time. And watch the life-or-death stampede when the shepherd appears.

5. Sheep are stubborn Have you ever tried to move a sheep? It’s like trying to move an elephant. Ever watched a shepherd try to manoeuvre a sheep into a fold or a dip-tank. It’s like trying to wrestle with a devil. Half a dozen sheep invaded my garden once. I thought it would be easy to hustle them out the wide gate again. But it was as if an electric shield (visible only to sheep) stretched across the gap. I could get them to go anywhere and everywhere, but through that gate.

6. Sheep are strong I’ve watched the most macho of men beaten by sheep. You look at their skinny “arms� and “legs� and think “easy.� Next thing you are flat on your back or face down in the dirt. I’ve been flattened by running sheep. It was like getting run over by a tank.

7. Sheep are straying Perhaps the main reason Scripture chooses sheep to characterize us, more than any other animal, is because of its well-deserved reputation for straying (Isa. 53:6) and getting lost (Lk. 15:3ff). So many times I was out in the middle of nowhere when I would come across a sheep – miles from anyone and anything – and totally unconcerned. I would look up on a cliff and there was a sheep out on a lethal ledge. Other times, when fishing miles from anywhere, I would come across ditches and bogs with the decaying remains of a wandering sheep, and I’d think, “How did that get out here?�

8. Sheep are unpredictable If you travel along the roads of the Scottish Highlands you will soon learn to expect the unexpected. You look ahead on a quiet piece of long straight road with no cars. You spy sheep in the distance on the side of the road. They watch you driving along towards them. Hundreds of yards pass. You are almost level. Well, they aren’t going to cross the road now, are they? Screeeeeech! Well, what do you know!

9. Sheep are copycats OK, bit of a mix of metaphors here, but I think you get my point. When one sheep decides to start running, they all decide to start running. If you were able to ask one, “Why did you start running?� it would say, “Well, because he started running.� The next would say the same. And the next one. And when you got to the last sheep he would just say, “I dunno.�

10. Sheep are restless It always puzzled me how little sheep slept. I would be in my study at midnight, look out, and there they were still eating grass. And no matter what time I arose in the morning – 3am or 5am – they would still be eating grass. Other times, there would be a beautiful summer evening when everything was still and quiet and you would come across a field full of sprinting sheep (usually due to the Scottish midges – look it up on Google). I once heard that for sheep to lie down they need freedom from fear, freedom from friction with others, freedom from hunger, and freedom from pests and parasites. From what I’ve seen, that combination is very rare.

11. Sheep are dependent Some animals can cope and thrive without any close supervision. Not sheep. They are very dependent on their shepherd. They cannot live without him (or her).

12. Sheep are the same everywhere I’ve been in a number of different countries in my life and enjoyed the many cultural differences. But sheep are the one constant – in character if not in looks. The American sheep is the same as the African sheep (see 1-11 above), which is the same as the Asian sheep, which is the same as…

[Zzyzx]

.
Wild sheep (undomesticated) are another matter entirely. They are survivors

https://ecwsf.org/facts-about-wild-sheep/

[marco]

I don't think it's a matter of defence (just as it's a distraction to analyse the mental health of those that commit suicide) essentially it's a matter of definition.

Definition of SUICIDE
1
a : the act or an instance of taking one's own life voluntarily and intentionally especially by a person of years of discretion and of sound mind
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/suicide

The termination of a person's life must come about by his own volition to qualify as a suicide. Putting oneself into a life threatening situation is not suicide; a fire fighter rushing into a burning building deliberately puts himslef in a life threatening situation. The suicide would be if he deliberately takes off his protective gear, douses himself in petrol and runs into a flame. In short, in order to be suicide, there must be an action (or an inaction) over and above the deliberate placing oneself in danger which can be cited as the cause of death. And that action must be under the control of the victim. So the deciding factor is what brought about his death, not how did he get into the situation in the first place or whether it was avoidable.

First of all the addition "especially by a person of years of discretion and sound mind" is not part of the definition. Suicide comes from two Latin words meaning "slaughter of oneself" regardless of who performs that act.


Yes, when a firefighter steps into the flames and dies he has not committed suicide in that his intention was not to die. Intention to die is an important factor and Christ had this. He could have prevented his death but did not. Therefore his action was suicidal. The manner in which he died is irrelevant.

[JehovahsWitness]

Suicide comes from two Latin words meaning "slaughter of oneself" regardless of who performs that act.

How can it be regardless of who performs the act if it must be the killing of oneself?

Yes, when a firefighter steps into the flames and dies he has not committed suicide in that his intention was not to die. Intention to die is an important factor ...

It's not just the intention to die. No matter how strong ones intention or desire, you haven't committed suicide until you couple the intention with an act.

He could have prevented his death but did not. Therefore his action was suicidal. The manner in which he died is irrelevant.

And the fireman could have prevented his death by either not going into the building in the first place or turning on his heel and abandoning those trapped in it at any moment up to his death. Being able to prevent ones death is nowhere in the definition of suicide.

Therefore his action was suicidal.

And therein lies the crux of the issue, what was the suicidal act(tion) that demonstrated an intention to provoke or cause his own death? We've already established it isn't placing of oneself in danger, especially if it is with the intention of ensuring the wellbeing of others. And being able to preserve ones life by making alternative decisions is irrelevant (its not a factor in the definition of suicide), so what was the act Jesus performed to provoke his own death?




JW


RELATED POSTS

Could Jesus public preaching be considered an act of suicide?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 976#980976