God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.
3 But Joab replied to the king, May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?
4 The kings word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, Davids seer: 12 Go and tell David, This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.
14 David said to Gad, I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, Enough! Withdraw your hand. The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 25 by alexxcJRO]


"Also is loggically impossible that from billions of free will people in hell none will repent while having infinite number of oportunities to do so."

They have infinite number of opportunities to repent while here on earth.

You kill, you become a murderer.
You rape, you become a rapist.
You selflessly and from the heart supply someone's need when they need it,
it makes you compassionate caring person.

This is what we take with us. We become either a heavenly or a hellish person.

As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen; on the same token if you can't stand the intensity of the Love and the Light of God you will
want to escape.

[Bust Nak]

They have infinite number of opportunities to repent while here on earth.

An unspecified but finite number of opportunities surely?

[alexxcJRO]

They have infinite number of opportunities to repent while here on earth.

Q: Wait what? Infinite number of opportunities in a finite life? )

This is the most moronic, illogical thing I have heard in a long while.

Q: How hard can it be to actually use your brain?

A finite life logically implies a finite number of opportunities to repent.

An infinite existence in hell would imply an infinite number of opportunities to repent.

According to Christian doctrine free willed humans that repent are forgiven and go to Heaven(including murderers and rapists).

Many free willed humans have repented while their finite existence on Earth, therefore it is logically impossible that none of billions of people that go to hell will not repent while their infinite existence there.

You kill, you become a murderer.
You rape, you become a rapist.
You selflessly and from the heart supply someone's need when they need it,
it makes you compassionate caring person.

God inflicts countless suffering, pain and death to countless non-moral agents: infants, mentally impaired people, animals(see Noahs story, Sodom and Gomorrahs story, The 10 plagues story, The genocide of the Canaanites) he becomes a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

[Bust Nak]

This is the most moronic, illogical thing I have heard in a long while.

Q: How hard can it be to actually use your brain?

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[ttruscott]

Small children, infants, the mentally impaired and animals do not have the rational faculties necessary to understand concepts like right, wrong, good, evil, law.

Therefore logic dictates they cannot be held responsible for any wrong doing and therefore punished under any circumstances whatsoever.

God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent-morally perfect; infinitely wise, just, merciful.

Therefore we would see zero small children or infants or mentally impaired people punished by God.

IF all we have is our material world and our birth is our creation, I accept your arguments s and made them myself for many years.

BUT then I experienced YHWH and now I Know He cannot be a GOD like that and the definitions of our reality that force HIM into that mold are wrong.

The only answer I have been led to and which I believe solves this problem is actually obvious (once you take our conception or birth off the table as our creation) is that we lived and sinned pre-earth and some sinned and some didn't in that place and time and all sinners are sent to earth as part of their judgment, (no rehabilitative value) or as a punishment with full rehabilitative intent.

We not saved by our mental understanding. The mentally deficient and infants can be and are saved if they are under HIS promise because all deficiencies are a result of our sins and not of our creation so have no bearing upon our salvation for we are saved from all effects of sin as well as the sin itself.

[ttruscott]

Also is loggically impossible that from billions of free will people in hell none will repent while having infinite number of oportunities to do so.

They have infinite number of opportunities to repent while here on earth.

The issue is not whether they have real opportunities or not but is with the nature of GOD.

As the GOD who is love which is patient, kind and never ending, if waiting one more minute might save someone with a free will at last, HE would wait! HE would wait for eternity for any one who can be saved to be saved.

The concept of the destruction of the wicked that GOD taught us proves that the wicked must have become eternally evil and outside of HIS loving patience and kindness. Since HIS nature as loving makes it impossible to believe that HE created anyone a condemned then it is also obvious to me that Satan et al (the goats, his angels) chose by their own free will to reject HIM and HIS promises of salvation from any sin becoming unsaveable no matter how much HE wants to save them since if free will is to be true, HE cannot change a free will decison for anyone.

Christians who hold the opposing views that GOD is love yet will not save everyone HE can (or even creates those who will not be saved, or HE creates people evil in sin) should solve this cognitive dissonance rather than call it a mystery by just plain looking at love and choosing whether orthodoxy has it right or not!

[ttruscott]

According to Christian doctrine free willed humans that repent are forgiven and go to Heaven(including murderers and rapists).

Many free willed humans have repented while their finite existence on Earth, therefore it is logically impossible that none of billions of people that go to hell will not repent while their infinite existence there.

According to you, you mean.

That salvation is a gift from GOD through faith is universal in Christendom proves that our free will here on earth gives us no advantage in our salvation. The other thing is that few Christians believe that humans have a free will or they live in cognitive dissonance of the necessity of our having a free will while we are coerced by evil in every situation.

No one is saved to heaven by their free will repentance but only by the promise of GOD.
No one in hell has a free will but is totally enslaved to evil and cannot form the intent of true repentance.

[alexxcJRO]

The only answer I have been led to and which I believe solves this problem is actually obvious (once you take our conception or birth off the table as our creation) is that we lived and sinned pre-earth and some sinned and some didn't in that place and time and all sinners are sent to earth as part of their judgment, (no rehabilitative value) or as a punishment with full rehabilitative intent.

We not saved by our mental understanding. The mentally deficient and infants can be and are saved if they are under HIS promise

Q: I am confused, not all humans are born in this universe, only those that have not choose God(the goats) in the previous life?

Q: What rehabilitative intent, you said in the past the all those that did not choose God(the goats) in the previous life are forever lost?

You are not making any sense.

[alexxcJRO]

According to you, you mean.

That salvation is a gift from GOD through faith is universal in Christendom proves that our free will here on earth gives us no advantage in our salvation. The other thing is that few Christians believe that humans have a free will or they live in cognitive dissonance of the necessity of our having a free will while we are coerced by evil in every situation.

No one is saved to heaven by their free will repentance but only by the promise of GOD.
No one in hell has a free will but is totally enslaved to evil and cannot form the intent of true repentance.

Not really. According to reality.

Lets see the reality shall we?:eyebrow:

Free will in theology

Catholic

The Catholic Church holds to the teaching that "by free will, (the human person) is capable of directing himself toward his true good man is endowed with freedom, an outstanding manifestation of the divine image'."[39] Man has free will either to accept or reject the grace of God, so that for salvation "there is a kind of interplay, or synergy, between human freedom and divine grace"

Oriental Orthodox
The concept of free will is also of vital importance in the Oriental (or non-Chalcedonian) Churches, those in communion with the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria. As in Judaism, free will is regarded as axiomatic. Everyone is regarded as having a free choice as to in what measure he or she will follow his or her conscience or arrogance, these two having been appointed for each individual. The more one follows one's conscience, the more it brings one good results, and the more one follows one's arrogance, the more it brings one bad results. Following only one's arrogance is sometimes likened to the dangers of falling into a pit while walking in pitch darkness, without the light of conscience to illuminate the path.

Eastern Orthodox

The Orthodox Church holds to the teaching of synergy (, meaning working together), which says that man has the freedom to, and must if he wants to be saved, choose to accept and work with the grace of God. St. John Cassian, a 4th-century Church Father and pupil of St. John Chrysostom, articulated this view and all the Eastern Fathers embraced it. He taught that "Divine grace is necessary to enable a sinner to return unto God and live, yet man must first, of himself, desire and attempt to choose and obey God", and that "Divine grace is indispensable for salvation, but it does not necessarily need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of human volition, the will can take the initiative toward God.".


Protestant
Arminianism

Christians who were influenced by the teachings of Jacobus Arminius (such as Methodists) believe that while God is all-knowing and always knows what choices each person will make, and he still gives them the ability to choose or not choose everything, regardless of whether there are any internal or external factors contributing to that choice.
Like John Calvin, Arminius affirmed total depravity, but Arminius believed that only prevenient grace allowed people to choose salvation:
Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace.... This grace [pr"venit] goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.[69]
Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.

Predestination
Lutherans believe that the elect are predestined to salvation.

Calvinist Protestants embrace the idea of predestination, namely, that God chose who would be saved and who would be not saved prior to the creation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology

Little summary:
- Catholic: Man has free will either to accept or reject the grace of God. Therefore free will is an important part in salvation.
- Judaism: free will is regarded as axiomatic. Everyone is regarded as having a free choice as to in what measure he or she will follow his or her conscience or arrogance. Therefore free will is an important part in salvation.
- Eastern Orthodox: man if he wants to be saved, choose to accept and work with the grace of God. Therefore free will is an important part in salvation.
- Protestant->Arminianism: prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer. Therefore free will is an important part in salvation.
- Lutherans and Calvinists believe in predestination. God has already chose the ones who are saved(elect) and those who are not(non-elect). There is nothing a man ca do to alter the final outcome regarding salvation.

C:The majority of Christians believe free will is an important aspect concerning salvation.

[ttruscott]

The only answer I have been led to and which I believe solves this problem is actually obvious (once you take our conception or birth off the table as our creation) is that we lived and sinned pre-earth and some sinned and some didn't in that place and time and all sinners are sent to earth as part of their judgment, (no rehabilitative value) or as a punishment with full rehabilitative intent.

We not saved by our mental understanding. The mentally deficient and infants can be and are saved if they are under HIS promise

Q: I am confused, not all humans are born in this universe, only those that have not choose God(the goats) in the previous life?

No, there are two kinds of sinners: those who rejected YHWH totally and became the Satanic demons called goats (Matt 25:31-46 especially v41 Then he will say to those on his left [the goats], Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.) and those who accepted HIS deity and became HIS elect able to be saved but who then rebelled against HIS plans for HIS creations.

Q: What rehabilitative intent, you said in the past the all those that did not choose God(the goats) in the previous life are forever lost?

The rehabilitation only applies to the elect sinners who have accepted HIS deity but rebelled against the judgement. It is described as painful discipline in Heb 12:5-11.

Two types of sinners, one for judgement, one for rehabilitation. One for destruction, one for salvation. One called goats, one called sheep.