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So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?Luke 16:
6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
Well, I guess I should stop trying to get a straight answer from you. You will not clearly explain your ideas, and it would have helped me to understand you if you had answered my succinct questions as I presented them to you. You have not, and are seemingly avoiding any clear answers to my questions. You have done a good job of skirting around the issues and redirecting attention to some other vague area of opinion, so that anyone looking on will be just as confused as they may have been from the start.tam wrote:Please see post 204, but I think they mean exactly what they say.onewithhim wrote:What do the verses 9 & 29 of Psalm 37 mean?tam wrote: [Replying to post 191 by onewithhim]
It's rather counter-productive to a discussion to totally blind-side it by not answering a simple question as to what Psalm 37:9 & 29 means. You, rather, ask a question that has nothing to do with the point under consideration.
I'm sorry but I'm afraid your objection has 'blind-sided' me, lol. You did not ask any questions as to what those verses mean. You simply cited them. I think they are self-explanatory; so if there is a particular question about them that you wanted me to answer, then I'm going to need you to be specific.
Peace again to you OWH,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy
Peace to you.
OK. I think I'm getting it. Is this what you're saying?--That the tenets of the Kingdom are being practiced by believers now, but the actual setting up of the governmental auspices of Christ's rulership are in the future, after he comes to bring an end to man's rule?Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 217 by onewithhim]
Checkpoint concluded
You respondedWhen anyone repents, God's permissive will is done on earth in response to His command and to prayer, thus bringing that little bit closer His ultimate will.
Your question as posed was an impossible one to answer to your satisfaction, by either of us.You STILL have avoided answering my question. I will ask it one more time.
Jesus indicated that the Kingdom would bring restoration to the earth and the end of all suffering and death---which would be God's will. If the Kingdom has been ruling to its full potential, why is there still suffering and death?
You see, your definition, "has been ruling to its full potential", is not one I have claimed, because it does not reflect scriptural claims or actual reality at this time.
Your question asks what is part of God's ultimate will, and can only come to pass when His kingdom is ruling to its full and ultimate potential. That is yet future, at and after te return of Christ.
"Read your lips"? Please....answer my question, because I do not know what those things are that you think are "assumptions" and "misunderstandings" on my part. You may have mentioned them in the past, but I don't remember....my apologies. Please bring me up to date on your viewpoint.Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 216 by onewithhim]
What is so hard to accept about what JW and I are trying to explain about the Kingdom?
Checkpoint replied
onewithhim then postedI do reject much of what you say about the kingdom.
That is because, to me, it is full of assumptions, misunderstandings, and claims that do not match what the New Testament conveys about the kingdom, whether present or future.
"Read my lips"[posts] on this thread for what has been written, and "watch this space" for what is yet to be written.Please be more specific. What assumptions and misunderstandings have I shown evidence of? How do my claims about the Kingdom not match what is said in the New Testament?
We have already debated on some specific points. Others may well arise.
Indeed...it IS "mental gymnastics" to pray for something to come that has been here since the beginning of time! It must be exhausting to have that mind-set.JehovahsWitness wrote:Checkpoint wrote: It does not "come" one time, but multiple times in answer to that prayer in multiple expression of God's will being done. [...] I said above, "The ruling began as soon as there was something to rule".
I think you misunderstand that the bible deals with two seperate (but related things)From what I can see, where you go wrong is a is being unable to see theses two seperate things thus your attempt to combine all statements to do with divine rulership into the Messieanic kingdom which obliges you to say that it began when God first had "something to rule" (ie long before the earth existed) and began in the Roman era... that it "came" during the time of cesars, "came again" just before Jesus told his followers to PRAY for it to come, has already "come" (while we continue to pray that it comes) and will come in the future to resolve earth problems.#1 God's universal sovereignty: God's position and power as KING and Supreme ruler of all creation; something that has always been and always will be and...
#2 The Messianic kingdom : The government that will be on the shoulders of the "Prince of Peace" (see the word "government" in Isaiah 6:9), the subject of numerous "messianic" prophecies, which has not always existed but began at a specific moment in time (which we both agree on - see above) and for which Jesus told his disciples to pray.
Yes God has "always been on His throne" this is reference to his unversal sovereinty, and position as supreme ruler of the unverses. When we pray for "Thy Kindom Come" we are asking for the full reealization of the MESSIANIC Kingdom promises. It's such a shame if people, especially those that love the bible, let pride and an unwillingness to back down stop them from accepting such a simple adjustment that will allow all the other scriptures to fall logically into place - without having to resort to the mental gymnastics of praying for somethin that has existed since the beginning of timeCheckpoint wrote:Yes, it has already come, it keeps on coming, and it will come in the future.
God always has been, and always will be, on His throne.
JW
Jesus said that the kingdom was "at hand" solely because he was there among them as the king-designate . He represented the Kingdom. When he actually took his throne and began ruling would be many centuries later.McCulloch wrote: [Replying to post 227 by JehovahsWitness]
So, according to you God could usher in a wonderful paradise, but he still has not done so. Why the delay? The kingdom was at hand two thousand years or so ago. Something was announced to have happened with regard to that kingdom over one hundred years ago. There is a super wonderful new earth that God continues to withhold from humanity while we continue to struggle with disease, war, crime and famine. And somehow you want me to believe that your version of God is a good guy.
The issue isn't being dodged. You are going to think awful things about God, no matter what J.W., timothy, tigger or I say.McCulloch wrote: [Replying to post 229 by JehovahsWitness]
Please don't dodge the issue. Your own portrayal of God makes him look either mean spirited, incompetent or impotent.
Really, how could anyone believe that the above is "mean-spirited"?JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 230 by McCulloch]
No I don't believe providing an everlasting paradise earth for all who want it, and perfect health as well as promising to resurrect (bring back to life on earth) their dead loved ones in perfect health so they can live and love them again is... "mean spirited" "incompetent" or "impotent" at all.
.... but if YOU believe that is the picture of "mean spiritedness" by all means, please do continue in that belief.
JW
RELATED POSTS
What will those ruling in the government (144,000) actually DO?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 622#878622
Who did Jesus look to for instruction and validity? Wasn't it Jehovah? To whom is he going to turn over his kingdom at the end of the Thousand Year Reign? (I Corinthians 15:24-28) Your answer please.Monta wrote: [Replying to post 242 by JehovahsWitness]
"When God created the unviverse there was no Messianic Kingdom (The Messianic Kingdom, is the kingdom (a type of government) that Jesus told us to pray for). The Messianic Kingdom government has NOT existed from the beginning of time; there was no need for the kingdom (I'll used the word government from Isaiah 9:6 to be clear), there was no need for the government.The governement hadn't been set up. The government has not always existed."
It took me while to realize that when JW talk of God's Kingdom, they are talking of God Jehovah' kingdom. Goof topic for Judaism forum.
When Christians talk about Kingdom they talk of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom.
There is no "guesswork" now. Christ's true believers know that he will rule from heaven for the duration of his Messianic rulership, and everyone will "see" him with eyes of understanding. It is quite sad that some continue to be blind to the truth and are expecting things that will not occur as they have imagined them, and will be supremely disappointed.tam wrote: Peace to you!
We really are not going to have to guess about Christ's return or the establishment of His Kingdom upon the earth. The only reason people 'guess' about it now, is because He has not yet returned, but some mistakenly believe He did, or that He should have, and so they have to come up with such things as an 'invisible' return.
At least Harold Camping repented and withdrew that claim before he died. Others continue to teach it, rather than admit or see that they (or their leaders) were wrong.
But we will all see Him when He returns. There will be no guesswork, there will be no question. No one will have to go around telling others who can't see for themselves that He has returned (just invisibly). Every eye will see Him.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
