Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

[Zzyzx]

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Is “Satan� actually a competing “god�?

All we “know� about the Satan character is from the POV of Bible writers – who claim that “he� is inferior to “God� (and presumably Jesus).

Since Bible writers and promoters have a vested interest in glorifying their favorite God(s) they could be expected to bad-mouth / demean / discredit the competition.

Since there is no assurance that there is only one “god� (or three-in-one for Christendom), the opposition might be one (or more) of the thousands of proposed gods. In fact, the only “evidence� for any of them consists of unverified tales, testimonials, conjectures, opinions, beliefs.

Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

Perhaps “Satan� isn't really the “bad guy� he is made out to be by promoters of the Bible God. Maybe “he� is another one of the “gods� and is equal to the Bible God and/or Jesus – and no more bad or good (or real or unreal) than they are.

It does not seem as though God and/or Jesus are able to defeat or eliminate Satan. Wonder why?

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 33 by marco]

It is fairly certain that a large percentage of religious folk ARE deceived. They espouse mutually inconsistent tales as divine truth. But each little faction thinks itself to be the chosen receptacle of truth. Were truth TRUTH, it would present evidence that was beyond question. No one here possesses that.

Good morning Mr. Marco!!!
Your statements could be said for both side of the coin. Honestly, if truth were as apparent as you seem to say, we wouldn't ever have the need for a judicial system.

[Willum]

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How do you know that Satan isn't the one communicating with you? He is supposed to be powerful and dishonest.

I have asked this question many times over the years and have never received a coherent answer.

Apologists seem to think that a supernatural master deceiver (according to their literature) could not deceive them. Yet many acknowledge that other people are deceived by "Satan".

It is fairly certain that a large percentage of religious folk ARE deceived. They espouse mutually inconsistent tales as divine truth. But each little faction thinks itself to be the chosen receptacle of truth. Were truth TRUTH, it would present evidence that was beyond question. No one here possesses that.

I must say that this seems to be excellent proof that the theory about Satan speaking as God is true, - excellent observation: It is impossible to argue with individuals about it, of course, but looking at the "big" and statistically relevant picture, obviously many are deceived.

In fact, most if not all. That would be a good study, and might even reveal, which, if any is true.

I wonder in there is a religious journal we can publish in and thus, put the matter to rest for good.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 29 by Peds nurse]

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"Might as well go for a soda
Nobody hurts and nobody cries
Might as well go for a soda
Nobody drowns and nobody dies"
- Kim Mitchell

t;]Thus, is there any sound reason that “Satan� could not be one of the other proposed gods and be equal in “power� to the Bible God?

“The Bible says� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in this C&A sub-forum or in this thread.

(...) If we cannot address in the Bible, or other Abrahamic religious books what it says about Satan, which is the only recorded source of his existence, how can we defend our position that Satan is not a god?

Peds, you have hit the nail on the head.

If we don't take the Bible as the authority on what the Bible says, what ARE we left with? I'd say... nothing at all but the dreams the wishes the hopes and prayers of the believers and the pronouncements of the preachers.

That's what atheists have been pointing out for about a few thousand years now.

I hate to let the wind out of your sails a bit,

Hi Peds, I am always amenable to being a bit deflated... hubris is not a good thing. Sometimes I make my case a little too strong for people, and they tend to miss it because of HOW I put it.... but, I am not perfect, and maybe should let my sails out from time to time.

Good reminder, thank you.

but I was referring to the debate about Satan. I can find the presence of God, apart from the Bible, as God gives us His Spirit, but since Satan has not the same qualities as God, the only reference to him is in the Bible...

That's what I am talking about, Peds. The only evidence of any "Satan" or "God" or "Christ" or basically anything Christian is in the Bible. We are talking about stories in a book here.

I think that some Christians forget that we ARE just talking about story book characters, and NOT about any beings that we have ever proved to exist OUTSIDE of the book. So, without the authority of what the BIBLE says.... these guys evaporate into nothingness. I just don't take book characters are real without some kind of evidence. Without evidence that they guys ARE real, all we have here is "I think the Bible says this about that", in all the millions of variations. So, as an outsider to your faith, I just shrug. Ok, great, you think that the Bible says "THIS" about "THAT".

But I really have to ask...."SO WHAT"?
We think differently, we haven't proved anything, now, let's go for a soda.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 34:

Your statements could be said for both side of the coin. Honestly, if truth were as apparent as you seem to say, we wouldn't ever have the need for a judicial system.

Only don't it beat all, so many Christians have decided to use the judicial system (among other government agencies) to infect society with their unfounded beliefs.

NOT that Peds nurse has, she's cool in my book.

[marco]

[Replying to post 33 by marco]

It is fairly certain that a large percentage of religious folk ARE deceived. They espouse mutually inconsistent tales as divine truth. But each little faction thinks itself to be the chosen receptacle of truth. Were truth TRUTH, it would present evidence that was beyond question. No one here possesses that.

Good morning Mr. Marco!!!
Your statements could be said for both side of the coin. Honestly, if truth were as apparent as you seem to say, we wouldn't ever have the need for a judicial system.

Hello nurse, and a pleasure it is to converse with you.

I'm not sure what coin we are talking about here but if it is the coin representing believers' beliefs on the one side and non-believers on the other then non-believers don't claim divine truth. The other side all claim truth, but it is clear that they are at odds with each other, so what they claim is not truth at all. On the face of it, the non-believers seem to win in their modest claims.

But I know this revelation won't dampen your spirits. Have a lovely day.

[JLB32168]

Remove the “FACT�? That has NOT been established as a fact.[/quote}You’re the one who wanted to discuss Satan and God. No one else would have said a word about these imaginary beings if you hadn’t brought them up.

You have a propensity to bring up topics ostensibly for the purpose of discussing those topics, only to gripe about how they don’t exist after someone entertains your question, which leaves one perplexed as to why you brought them up in the first place.

“I want to discuss these things with you; however, whenever you bring them up, I’m going to tell you that the things we’re going to discuss don’t exist.�

WTH??

I am not bound to accept the Christian / Abrahamic religion position regarding gods or devils.

But you asked if Satan was a god. If you didn’t want an answer then why’d you ask the question?

Thus, God did not make everything in the universe.

God doesn’t exist, so the point is irrelevant and we shouldn’t be discussing it.

Now . . . to the theist who believes that God exists, I would point out that God did indeed make everything; however, death isn’t a thing. It occupies no space, has no mass, weight, and it cannot be measured; therefore, it isn’t an object that could have been made by anyone.

Because something appears in NT stories is NOT assurance that it happened.

Your only source for Satan is the NT. Now you’re casting aspersion upon your own source material. What are you trying to prove by attacking the one source upon which you’re building your argument?

Your debate is making no sense.

[JLB32168]

To get round the problem of God creating evil . . .

What is evil? Where is it located – since it’s a thing that was created and all?

[Zzyzx]

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Remove the “FACT�? That has NOT been established as a fact.

You’re the one who wanted to discuss Satan and God. No one else would have said a word about these imaginary beings if you hadn’t brought them up.

Notice that I introduce a lot of topics and that they typically receive a lot of responses.

My topics might not be appropriate in Holy Huddle or Theology, Doctrine and Dogma sub-forums; however, I debate primarily in C&A and not the others.

Is my statement "That [your claim regarding Jesus] has not been established as a fact" correct or not?

You have a propensity to bring up topics ostensibly for the purpose of discussing those topics, only to gripe about how they don’t exist after someone entertains your question, which leaves one perplexed as to why you brought them up in the first place.

Correction: I do NOT say “they do not exist�. That would be a claim to know and be able to substantiate such a position. Instead, I correctly state that the various supernatural entities (thousands of them) have not been shown to be anything more than imaginary.

Astute readers can distinguish between the two.

“I want to discuss these things with you; however, whenever you bring them up, I’m going to tell you that the things we’re going to discuss don’t exist.�

See above

I am not bound to accept the Christian / Abrahamic religion position regarding gods or devils.

But you asked if Satan was a god. If you didn’t want an answer then why’d you ask the question?

I ask for an answer WITH verifiable evidence – not opinions and unverifiable ancient tales

Thus, God did not make everything in the universe.

God doesn’t exist, so the point is irrelevant and we shouldn’t be discussing it.

If we agree that God doesn't exist there is no need for discussion. However, it seems as though many who debate here (and the literature upon which they base their positions) contend that God does exist – and make claims to have knowledge of such supernatural entities.

I simply challenge those claims – which seems to irritate many people. Perhaps they are accustomed to environments in which they can pontificate about supernatural entities as though they knew such things – without being challenged.

Now . . . to the theist who believes that God exists, I would point out that God did indeed make everything;

Belief and unverified assumption noted.

however, death isn’t a thing.

Okay. By that same “reasoning� love isn't a thing, so God didn't create it. Right?

It occupies no space, has no mass, weight, and it cannot be measured; therefore, it isn’t an object that could have been made by anyone.

As one who does not drink the Kool Aid, I point out that there is no assurance that any of the thousands of “gods� worshiped, love, feared, hated, fought over are anything more than imagination.

If one claims that their favorite “god� created the universe and all it contains – and if it contains death – the “creator god� MUST have created death or it would not exist. An alternative for Apologists might be to claim that their “god� did not create death, and thus did not create the contents and conditions of the universe.

Another alternative is that the entire “creation� claim is poppycock.

Because something appears in NT stories is NOT assurance that it happened.

Your only source for Satan is the NT.

Correction: My source for STORIES about “Satan� is the Bible and its adherents. I do not claim to know about such things.

Now you’re casting aspersion upon your own source material.

Correction: I raise questions to illustrate that Bible stories and Christian beliefs cannot be shown to be based upon anything more that imagination and storytelling.

What are you trying to prove by attacking the one source upon which you’re building your argument?

See above

Your debate is making no sense.

Opinion noted. Readers will decide for themselves whose debate positions make sense.


If you are done complaining about my style of debate or choice of questions, lets get back to the OP – “Is 'Satan' actually a competing “god�? Notice that your post has not attempted to discuss that matter but was devoted to personal complaints. Try debating the issues.

[Peds nurse]

That's what I am talking about, Peds. The only evidence of any "Satan" or "God" or "Christ" or basically anything Christian is in the Bible. We are talking about stories in a book here.

I think that some Christians forget that we ARE just talking about story book characters, and NOT about any beings that we have ever proved to exist OUTSIDE of the book. So, without the authority of what the BIBLE says.... these guys evaporate into nothingness. I just don't take book characters are real without some kind of evidence. Without evidence that they guys ARE real, all we have here is "I think the Bible says this about that", in all the millions of variations. So, as an outsider to your faith, I just shrug. Ok, great, you think that the Bible says "THIS" about "THAT".

But I really have to ask...."SO WHAT"?
We think differently, we haven't proved anything, now, let's go for a soda.

Hello my friend, Blastcat!

This has to be one of my most favorite replies from you because you seem so genuine. I can work with genuine! Thanks Blastcat!

So, what separates the Bible, and its claims of Satan, to any other book that we believe is true? Are we not believing the claims that others have written? Have we witnessed any of those claims? Surely there has to be more than this reason.

If those who are witnesses on this Earth to God's love and character, does that account for something? People use character witnesses all the time for jobs, promotions, in a court of law, and even credit reports. They are all just documentations of our actions. We didn't write them, someone else compiled them about us, to be a witness for our name. How is the Bible any different?

I think I might be getting off topic...

Best wishes for a fabulous evening!

ps...can I have a diet soda?

[Zzyzx]

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[Replying to post 42 by Peds nurse]

Hi PN -- it is always a pleasure to respond to your posts.

So, what separates the Bible, and its claims of Satan, to any other book that we believe is true?

PN, I have, or have access to, numerous books on geology by authors from all over the world. I accept (not “believe�), at least conditionally, that much of what they present is truthful and accurate. I allow that there may be errors, misconceptions, questionable conclusions, and need for improvement through further study and new information using new techniques and methods.

When they present information about the Rocky Mountains, for instance, I have personally studied on-site the geology of that region. I also have access to innumerable government and industry studies of the area.

What separates the Bible from that? It is a single book written by a small group of people promoting one of the many religions. None of its key claims and stories can be shown to be true and accurate (cannot be verified). So it is a matter of “take their word for it�.

Are we not believing the claims that others have written?

What I describe above is VERY different than just believing what a few people write that cannot be verified by anyone (myself or others).

Have we witnessed any of those claims? Surely there has to be more than this reason.

The critical question is “Can we verify what is said� – determine whether it is true and accurate or not. To me, if claims and statements cannot be verified (preferably by numerous disconnected sources) are just added to the pile of questionable claims and statements.

Of course, others see things differently and may believe (or accept) what they are told or what they read. However, the Internet and other sources of information are rife with rumors, urban legends, disinformation, propaganda, etc. A prudent person checks before accepting / believing.

If those who are witnesses on this Earth to God's love and character, does that account for something?

That is ONLY personal opinion and testimonial. Many of us do not trust such unverifiable sources.

People use character witnesses all the time for jobs, promotions, in a court of law, and even credit reports. They are all just documentations of our actions. We didn't write them, someone else compiled them about us, to be a witness for our name. How is the Bible any different?

Are character witness statements invariably true and accurate? Might they ever be “slanted� in favor of the subject person?

It is not unknown in the business world for a manager to write a glowing reference for a person they want to get rid of. It is also not unknown for such references to be complete fabrications. As a former employer I did not place great stock in character references. If the position was important I would contact the person whose name was shown as the reference – to learn a bit more about their insights. Even then, the new person was carefully observed during a trial / probation period until they proved their worth / merit.