Who created God

[Donray]

Who created God?

The intelligent design folks point to the fact that the universe is perfect universe and therefore must have been created by God.

I also understand that God is perfect.

Given these facts, who or what created God?

[100%atheist]

Math is based on evidence, so your analogy does not hold.

So Beware! We better have a good excuse not believing, or for worshipping other gods and deities.

... so there are other gods.... Yahweh is not alone! Good to know.

[arian]

2 of something + 3 of something will always equal the same thing (which happens to be 5). I can supply evidence to show you that I can prove this statement.

I agree.

Because you choose to call a 5 a 6 does not change the fact that 2 + 3 will always equal the same thing. Semantics does not cause math to stop working all of a sudden.

Again I agree with you. I was just trying to make a point;

* At one point in time, for no reason, out of nothing a big bang happened and created the universe (6)

* God created the universe and the world and everything in them (5)

One is false (the 6) and is out of place, while the other (the 5) is the absolute truth.

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whoever shall believe in him will have everlasting life.

Sorry, but the Mayans don't qualify.

If that was the case, then neither does anyone else before Jesus arrived, which would include: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. Don't forget David, Daniel, the Prophets and so on.

The Prophets of old prophesied revelations, and Jesus came to explain it all to us, from beginning to the end. But the Power of Gods Holy Spirit worked then as He does now. Except now we really don't have an excuse. Back then, ... God overlooked many weaknesses and even sins, but now the final and eternal sacrifice to take all mens sins away has been offered, so those that 'heard ' Jesus teachings have no excuse at all.

So either way, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, to those on His right hand He will say: "Come my beloved, well done, enter now into my eternal Kingdom." But those on His left He will say: "Be gone you evil and wicked, into that eternal darkness prepared for your Master the Devil and his angels. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, .."

Odon

[arian]

Math is based on evidence, so your analogy does not hold.

So Beware! We better have a good excuse not believing, or for worshipping other gods and deities.

... so there are other gods.... Yahweh is not alone! Good to know.

Read it again; .... better have a good excuse for both, 'not believing, .. or for worshiping other gods and deities'.

You only fall into the first part...

[arian]

Einstein was alone on many of his theorems for many years.

Wouldn't you mind to name a few of Einsteins theorems on which he was alone please?

Theorems:
logic mathematics provable proposition or formula: a proposition or formula in mathematics or logic that is provable from a set of axioms and basic assumptions
Microsoft Encarta

Personally, I don't know Einstein proposed theorems.

Theorems:
logic mathematics provable proposition or formula: a proposition or formula in mathematics or logic that is provable from a set of axioms and basic assumptions

And also, he was the one who was skeptical about some of his colleagues findings, so it's rather Pauli than Einstein who was alone.

Pauli then. Thank you 100%.

Regarding the first part of your post concerning math books. The major difference between math books and the bible is that math (and scientific books in general) books do not need interpretation and they can be put to a test.

Science books don't need interpretation?
Math books don't need interpretations?
Man, ... you are one smart cookie if you can pick up a calculous book for the first time and go through it! Many of us need someone to at least start us off the right direction. Unless... we go on Wikipedia, ... now that can teach even dumb me about things like the quantum field theory,

The bible and other religious books require interpretation and they can't be put to a test.

Sure they can, I have. I put everything I learned in my life, to the test what the Bible says, and it was the only book that answered all my questions. Not only that, but it gave me a perspective on life, where I can also ask the right questions. I don't know which one is more important, ..I believe it is that it has taught me to ask the right questions... then to look for the answers. Yes, I believe that's it.

I don't need to argue with a teacher that 2+2 is not 5, but I can simply demonstrate it. What can you demonstrate from the Bible other than what can be found in non-religious books? Can you demonstrate that a person can live for some 800 years or so and that the entire biosphere of the Earth can fit into a one bloated boat? Can you demonstrate that the universe was created by a conscious being? Etc., etc., etc.

Sure, .. but what's the use? You are already up to being 100% atheist, so why bother?

As for the universe being created, I guess we have a choice:

1. From, and in nothing, a tiny pin sized complete universe appeared. Then soon as it popped it's tiny head out of the nothing, it blew up .. like a baloon. This started time. Then we waited and waited, ... .. then waited some more till the heat cooled and started forming amazing balls of fire and ice. On one of these balls, water appeared. Don't ask me why? There was no reason or plan of anything nor anyone, and then these tiny bacterium started moving, swimming I guess for billions of years, and here we are.

2. Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
NKJV

Gen 1:26-28
26 Then God said,"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them,"Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
NKJV

HOWEVER, if you are still involved in QA of jet engines, I will probably lie to you that I agree with everything you say and I'd better avoid further discussions for the sake of personal and public safety.

Go ahead and say it, .. I'm not afraid!
Do you mean the part that our government put their 'special men' to assemble these perfectly machined parts by dropping them on the shaft from 3 feet high making some engines blow up in testing, or in flight?

That was just the assembly, now I can just imagine what they do during repairs.

Yeah.. I know. But when they have no guilt, no God to answer to, no shame, ... anything goes my friend. Destruction, causing pain and suffering is part of their job. Its the OWO, buddy, and either you take it, or they will tell you, you have cancer. They will give you this at your local "Cancer Hospitals" located now throughout the Nation. Remember, ... it's that last treatment that's the killer.

Take care.

Odon

[Artie]

Arian makes perfect sense logically.

1. Meterology explains thunder and lightning.
2. Thunder and lightning is made by Thor the Thundergod.

Noone in their right mind would even consider option number 1 would they?

[Clownboat]

2 of something + 3 of something will always equal the same thing (which happens to be 5). I can supply evidence to show you that I can prove this statement.

I agree.

Because you choose to call a 5 a 6 does not change the fact that 2 + 3 will always equal the same thing. Semantics does not cause math to stop working all of a sudden.

Again I agree with you. I was just trying to make a point;

* At one point in time, for no reason, out of nothing a big bang happened and created the universe (6)

* God created the universe and the world and everything in them (5)

One is false (the 6) and is out of place, while the other (the 5) is the absolute truth.

You do not know that the big bang happend for no reason. There could be a very logical reason for it and we just don't know it. You claim that a god creating the universe is an absolute truth. Do you think I am an un-thinking idiot?

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whoever shall believe in him will have everlasting life.

Sorry, but the Mayans don't qualify.

If that was the case, then neither does anyone else before Jesus arrived, which would include: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. Don't forget David, Daniel, the Prophets and so on.

The Prophets of old prophesied revelations, and Jesus came to explain it all to us, from beginning to the end. But the Power of Gods Holy Spirit worked then as He does now. Except now we really don't have an excuse. Back then, ... God overlooked many weaknesses and even sins, but now the final and eternal sacrifice to take all mens sins away has been offered, so those that 'heard ' Jesus teachings have no excuse at all.

So either way, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, to those on His right hand He will say: "Come my beloved, well done, enter now into my eternal Kingdom." But those on His left He will say: "Be gone you evil and wicked, into that eternal darkness prepared for your Master the Devil and his angels. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, .."

Odon

You're forgetting about the old covenant and blood sacrifices and all. Something the Mayans did not have (unless you want to count human sacrifices to other gods).

[arian]

Arian makes perfect sense logically.

1. Meterology explains thunder and lightning.
2. Thunder and lightning is made by Thor the Thundergod.

Noone in their right mind would even consider option number 1 would they?

Oh come on Artie, just because Meteorology can explain how thunder and lightning happen does not mean that now they have the 'claim' to or the 'patent' of thunder and lightning.

What I mean is:
If someone who has never even seen a car before would happen to stumble on a Ford Mustang in the jungle, take it apart pece by pece, bolt by bolt, and call it a 'frignack' and tell stories to his tribe how this 'frignack' came to be by some stones rolling off the mountains over billions of years until this 'frignack' evolved to what they see now, .. and then over the next many, .. many years of experiments with it, through trial and error learn to re-assemble it back together, .. does not change the fact that Ford built it. That his engineers worked hard on planning it our, the machinists worked hard to make all the parts and the assemblers put it all together. That it was all carefully planned out.

Now that Chief Ugg knows about this 'frignack' he could assemble the whole village and show off his mighty power by turning a certain key which he calls 'ClickClick' and the engine runs and makes a rumbling sound.

It might take him another 10 years to figure out that if you put that stick in the floor and match it to this symbol 'D', the car moves.

Wow! The whole village would be astounded at the Chiefs knowledge of the 'frignack' and this 'discovery' would be attributed to Chief Ugg, the greatest mind in all the villages.

[Artie]

Arian makes perfect sense logically.

1. Meterology explains thunder and lightning.
2. Thunder and lightning is made by Thor the Thundergod.

Noone in their right mind would even consider option number 1 would they?

Oh come on Artie, just because Meteorology can explain how thunder and lightning happen does not mean that now they have the 'claim' to or the 'patent' of thunder and lightning.

Nice story! I am not sure what you mean by the statement above. Are you saying that even though meteorologists can explain how thunder and lightning happens Thor is still the one who has the "claim" or "patent" to it and is ultimately responsible for creating it?

[Clownboat]

Arian makes perfect sense logically.

1. Meterology explains thunder and lightning.
2. Thunder and lightning is made by Thor the Thundergod.

Noone in their right mind would even consider option number 1 would they?

Oh come on Artie, just because Meteorology can explain how thunder and lightning happen does not mean that now they have the 'claim' to or the 'patent' of thunder and lightning.

Nice story! I am not sure what you mean by the statement above. Are you saying that even though meteorologists can explain how thunder and lightning happens Thor is still the one who has the "claim" or "patent" to it and is ultimately responsible for creating it?

That is what I got out of this story too. I have a hard time believing that, that is actually what he believes though, but that is what his story seems to suggest.

[arian]

2 of something + 3 of something will always equal the same thing (which happens to be 5). I can supply evidence to show you that I can prove this statement.

I agree.

Because you choose to call a 5 a 6 does not change the fact that 2 + 3 will always equal the same thing. Semantics does not cause math to stop working all of a sudden.

Again I agree with you. I was just trying to make a point;

* At one point in time, for no reason, out of nothing a big bang happened and created the universe (6)

* God created the universe and the world and everything in them (5)

One is false (the 6) and is out of place, while the other (the 5) is the absolute truth.

You do not know that the big bang happened for no reason. There could be a very logical reason for it and we just don't know it. You claim that a god creating the universe is an absolute truth. Do you think I am an un-thinking idiot?

The Big bang never happened, and there is no Thor either. They are stories, ... that's all. As for the creation of the universe, it has a very obvious reason, ... well for me anyways. One is that we are debating here on who or who didn't Create it? Read my story to Artie, .. It's all about man wanting to take credit for even the universes creation... Since man can't take the credit, ... then "NO ONE WILL!" (now picture a child with hands folded) ".. There, ... Hmmphhh, ...."

Now maybe you and other intellectuals here may believe differently, maybe none of you see a single reason for all this creation? To you this all may be just a chaotic, meaningless and unplanned mess, and its physics with a lot of laws and rules? Yuk!

If this is how you see it, .. I can sympathize with your disappointment, I mean look what science has to look forward to; Andromeda Galaxy is coming into collision with us, the black holes are eating up all our suns, and if the universe keeps expanding, we'll eventually run out of black-matter and the whole thing will just disappear into the nothing it came out of.
The sun will expand and swallow us up whole,
.. the meteors that once created us will collide and kill us all... where is man to turn? Who will help us from all this Chaotic dangers we are facing? ... oh, the burden of keeping this universe, ... sometimes it's just too much for man, and time is running out! What, .. we got maybe a few billion years and 'blip!' lights out for us. We must hurry!

Let's see now, .. what's on our 'to-do list'?

1. Find another habitable planet ASAP

2. If non found within reasonable distance, 'make one' habitable.

^check^ already in progress, .. the Biosphere, ... only a teeny-weeny problem; we can't seem to get along on this huge earth, then how will we get along in such tight quarters? We've been there and done that, and it didn't work.

^check^ 'The Stephen Hawking alternative', continue on the 'nano-bot project', inject humans with them to keep them alive in any condition.
'Mars, .. here we come. AAahhh.. to bathe in that minus 200 degree atmosphere, no more chaotic blue skies, and that sickening green grass, .. who needs it? .. I'm looking forward to it... really..

I can just see us standing in one of the Bio-spheres on mars, you pull your wife.. sorry, .. partner next to you and say to her/him/it (you never know on Mars! ) "Honey, . .. ahhh... just look at that storm coming in... isn't this just beautiful? And just think you didn't want to move here... well, ... it's all behind us now, .. it's not like we'll be moving back in our lifetime, right honey? Oh, .. almost forgot! Are the kids tied down good, .. this one looks like a big one."

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, so that whoever shall believe in him will have everlasting life.

Sorry, but the Mayans don't qualify.

If that was the case, then neither does anyone else before Jesus arrived, which would include: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. Don't forget David, Daniel, the Prophets and so on.

The Prophets of old prophesied revelations, and Jesus came to explain it all to us, from beginning to the end. But the Power of Gods Holy Spirit worked then as He does now. Except now we really don't have an excuse. Back then, ... God overlooked many weaknesses and even sins, but now the final and eternal sacrifice to take all mens sins away has been offered, so those that 'heard ' Jesus teachings have no excuse at all.

So either way, we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ, to those on His right hand He will say: "Come my beloved, well done, enter now into my eternal Kingdom." But those on His left He will say: "Be gone you evil and wicked, into that eternal darkness prepared for your Master the Devil and his angels. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, .."

Odon

You're forgetting about the old covenant and blood sacrifices and all. Something the Mayans did not have (unless you want to count human sacrifices to other gods).

There, .. you just mentioned another proof that they knew about the sacrifices too!

Take care my friend.

Odon