Does anyone actually believe the story of Noah's Ark?
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Does anyone actually believe the story of Noah's Ark?
Post #1I know a bunch of Christians, and so many of them believe that Noah's Ark is a myth. Basically just a story to teach morals and lessons. I personally see a lot of things wrong with the story of the flood. So I was wondering, if anyone believes the story of Noah's Ark, and the world flood, to be the truth?
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EarthScienceguy
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Post #221
[Replying to post 213 by Topaz27]
The oldest tree in the world is considered to be the Methuselah, a 4,845-year-old Great Basin bristlecone pine (Pinus longaeva) in the White Mountains of California. This age is based on tree rings.
The question is can trees grow more than one tree ring per year. It has been shown that trees can grow more than one tree ring per year in drought conditions after it rains.
LaMarche notes, ‘Comparative aridity thus seems to be an important characteristic of the “old-age habitat�’ and ‘Thus, high life expectancy is apparently related to the frequent occurrence of sub-optimum moisture conditions.’ Consequently, ‘There is a large concentration of ancient trees on arid sites at the lower forest border in the White Mountains.’ Conversely, LaMarche found that where moisture conditions were better, as in valley areas where a decent soil can accumulate, none of the BCPs reach the ancient ‘ages’, ‘No old bristlecone pines are found in the valley bottom, which is a sheltered area with deep colluvial soil and gentle surface slope.’
LaMarche, V.C., Environment in Relation to Age of Bristlecone Pines, Ecology 50(1):56–57, 1969
The only place where there are old trees are in the exact place where more than one tree ring can grow at a time.
Similarly, researchers have found that in the central area of a stand of BCP trees, where growing conditions are the best, the trees do not have more than several hundred rings. But at the margins of the stand, where the soil thins and growing conditions become progressively poorer, the trees with the most rings are found.
LaMarche, ref. 13, p. 57.
LaMarche notes that ‘Attainment of an age greater than about 1,500 years apparently depends on the adoption of a strip-growth habit.’
LaMarche, ref. 13, p. 54.
Glock et al. demonstrated that in dry climates, not only are ‘false’ rings common in many species, but the bands of ‘false’ dark-wood can have outer boundaries that are every bit as distinct as the outer boundaries of a true annual ring.2 Therefore, ‘false rings’ can be indistinguishable from ‘true’ annual rings; ‘ … the growth layers resulting from intra-annual flushes [of growth] may, and commonly do, possess outer borders indistinguishable from the borders terminating the annual increment … .
Glock W.S., Studhalter, R.A. and Agerter, S.R., Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees, Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections 140(1):1–292, 1960.
So what other living things are older than the flood date.
The oldest tree in the world is considered to be the Methuselah, a 4,845-year-old Great Basin bristlecone pine (Pinus longaeva) in the White Mountains of California. This age is based on tree rings.
The question is can trees grow more than one tree ring per year. It has been shown that trees can grow more than one tree ring per year in drought conditions after it rains.
LaMarche notes, ‘Comparative aridity thus seems to be an important characteristic of the “old-age habitat�’ and ‘Thus, high life expectancy is apparently related to the frequent occurrence of sub-optimum moisture conditions.’ Consequently, ‘There is a large concentration of ancient trees on arid sites at the lower forest border in the White Mountains.’ Conversely, LaMarche found that where moisture conditions were better, as in valley areas where a decent soil can accumulate, none of the BCPs reach the ancient ‘ages’, ‘No old bristlecone pines are found in the valley bottom, which is a sheltered area with deep colluvial soil and gentle surface slope.’
LaMarche, V.C., Environment in Relation to Age of Bristlecone Pines, Ecology 50(1):56–57, 1969
The only place where there are old trees are in the exact place where more than one tree ring can grow at a time.
Similarly, researchers have found that in the central area of a stand of BCP trees, where growing conditions are the best, the trees do not have more than several hundred rings. But at the margins of the stand, where the soil thins and growing conditions become progressively poorer, the trees with the most rings are found.
LaMarche, ref. 13, p. 57.
LaMarche notes that ‘Attainment of an age greater than about 1,500 years apparently depends on the adoption of a strip-growth habit.’
LaMarche, ref. 13, p. 54.
Glock et al. demonstrated that in dry climates, not only are ‘false’ rings common in many species, but the bands of ‘false’ dark-wood can have outer boundaries that are every bit as distinct as the outer boundaries of a true annual ring.2 Therefore, ‘false rings’ can be indistinguishable from ‘true’ annual rings; ‘ … the growth layers resulting from intra-annual flushes [of growth] may, and commonly do, possess outer borders indistinguishable from the borders terminating the annual increment … .
Glock W.S., Studhalter, R.A. and Agerter, S.R., Classification and multiplicity of growth layers in the branches of trees, Smithsonian Miscellaneous Collections 140(1):1–292, 1960.
So what other living things are older than the flood date.
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onewithhim
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Post #222
OK. I think that trees and grass and fungi can survive under water for a time. It would be interesting to research just how long plants can survive under water.Topaz27 wrote: [Replying to onewithhim]
Sorry I should've been clear, the things that are that old are trees, sea grass, fungi etc.
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Tcg
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Post #223
Here's the answer concerning trees:onewithhim wrote:OK. I think that trees and grass and fungi can survive under water for a time. It would be interesting to research just how long plants can survive under water.Topaz27 wrote: [Replying to onewithhim]
Sorry I should've been clear, the things that are that old are trees, sea grass, fungi etc.
- The Effects of Standing Water and Flooding on Trees and Landscape Plants
Tree survival and recovery after flooding depends on how much trees are covered by water. Some species can survive standing in several feet of water for months, but if their foliage is completely covered they can die in as quickly as one month. In fact, very few species can tolerate more than one month of complete submersion.
https://www.nativelanddesign.com/blog/t ... ape-plants
Tcg
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Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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onewithhim
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Post #224
[Replying to post 223 by Tcg]
OK. Thanks for that info, Tcg. I can set all this on the shelf for now and be content to wait until YHWH informs us of all these things after Armageddon. It doesn't matter to me if the Flood covered every bit of land or if it didn't. We'll see. There seemed to be some kind of a tremendous Deluge, one that caused temperatures to drop very far in an instant (destroying our terrarium-like existence here on earth, when water fell from the water around us out in space [Genesis 1:7]). So what the hard facts are will be understood at some time in the future, I'm sure.
OK. Thanks for that info, Tcg. I can set all this on the shelf for now and be content to wait until YHWH informs us of all these things after Armageddon. It doesn't matter to me if the Flood covered every bit of land or if it didn't. We'll see. There seemed to be some kind of a tremendous Deluge, one that caused temperatures to drop very far in an instant (destroying our terrarium-like existence here on earth, when water fell from the water around us out in space [Genesis 1:7]). So what the hard facts are will be understood at some time in the future, I'm sure.
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Tcg
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Post #225
[Replying to post 224 by onewithhim]
There is no need to wait. We have enough facts now, such as the ones I presented, to know that the flood could not have happened literally as it is described in the Bible.
Tcg
There is no need to wait. We have enough facts now, such as the ones I presented, to know that the flood could not have happened literally as it is described in the Bible.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
Post #226
[Replying to EarthScienceguy]
There are plants/fungi that are colonies. Take Pando, it occupies around 106 acres, and is made up of quaking aspens with a connected root system. It is estimated to be about 80,000 years old, but it's a very rough estimate. But the general consensus is that is thousands of years older then when the flood supposedly happened. And please note, that that's just one example. There's a huckleberry bush in PA that's around 13,000 years old. The Huon Pine colony in Tasmania is quite notable, with specific trees being thousands of years old, while the whole colony is around 10,000.
And many more.
And there are also civilization that seemingly lived right through the flood without even noticing it. But that's obviously not one single organism. But it's comparable to the tree colonies stated above
There are plants/fungi that are colonies. Take Pando, it occupies around 106 acres, and is made up of quaking aspens with a connected root system. It is estimated to be about 80,000 years old, but it's a very rough estimate. But the general consensus is that is thousands of years older then when the flood supposedly happened. And please note, that that's just one example. There's a huckleberry bush in PA that's around 13,000 years old. The Huon Pine colony in Tasmania is quite notable, with specific trees being thousands of years old, while the whole colony is around 10,000.
And many more.
And there are also civilization that seemingly lived right through the flood without even noticing it. But that's obviously not one single organism. But it's comparable to the tree colonies stated above
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #227
[Replying to post 224 by onewithhim]
It is quite possible some plants, seeds and bulbs etc survived the flood.
REASONS
WATERS
TOPOLOGY
PLANTS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p984243
It is quite possible some plants, seeds and bulbs etc survived the flood.
REASONS
STRUCTUREWas the biblical flood story mere allegory?
viewtopic.php?p=1048372#p1048372
WHY : What was the purpose of the flood?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p874813
Did God make provision to save anyone other than Noah and his family?
viewtopic.php?p=1056508#p1056508
How is it that evil reemerged after the flood of Noah's day?
viewtopic.php?p=1050342#p1050342
Why did God destroy the Nephelim?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 90#p875690
Does the global flood prove God a "baby killer"?
viewtopic.php?p=979190#p979190
Why would God choose FLOODING the earth as a method of execution ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 64#p874964
Why did God not employ the slow extermination of the wicked through sterilization? viewtopic.php?p=1061072#p1061072
Does Genesis 6:3 mean humans were decreed to live no longer than 120 years?
viewtopic.php?p=1056497#p1056497
Would the ark have floated?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#p792160
Would the ark have had adequate ventilation ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 46#p984346
Would the air pressure in the ark being so thin that Noah wouldnt have been able to breath?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p792892
WATERS
Where did the waters come from ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 07#p983807
Where did the waters come go ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p983813
How could marine life have survived the DESALTIFICATION of the oceans?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 18#p983818
How long did the flood last?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p755275
TOPOLOGY
How could the waters have covered the mountains?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 30#p983830
How can the earth's present topology be explained [high mountains]?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p983976
PLANTS
ANIMALS Q&AHow could plant life have survived the flood ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 82#p983982
How could the surviving plants and seeds result in the variety of plant life we see today?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p984071
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p984243
TIMELINES
Why did animals have to suffer during the flood of Noahs day?
viewtopic.php?p=1027924#p1027924
Did Noah put all the animals to sleep in the ark?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 25#p995625
What is a biblical "kind" ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 30#p984330
How could marsupials native to Autralia been collected? [Kangeroos, Koalas..]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p984396
How much food storage space would have been needed?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 55#p984555
How MANY animals would Noah have had on the ark?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p984905
What about all the ZOO POO ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p995291
Is it possible animals reprouced on the ark?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 82#p985382
What would big cats like lions and tigers have eaten? [doves]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p984703
Would Noah have collected insects and worms?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p985039
Does not the bible say the earth is a few thousand years old?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 42#p983842
Are all scientific/ historical timelines accurate?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p984076
Why did Noah & his family stay in the Ark after the rains stopped?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p755059
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:42 am, edited 17 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Post #228
[Replying to post 227 by JehovahsWitness]
You know that all your post say basally nothing. Please describe the KINDs of animals and be specific. Please describe with a tree structure what current animals evolved form from your Kind that was on the ark at the base of the tree structure.
Example: https://tresturonsblog.files.wordpress. ... .jpg?w=545
Since you have all this info you must have studies the subject therefore you should be able to provide a name of a text book that has ALL the information with the proof. Or are you just making things up that agree with your belief system?
When exactly was this flood????
Show how the Kangaroo evolved to got to where they live now for the Kind that was on the ARK.
I will be interested if you can answer any of these.
You know that all your post say basally nothing. Please describe the KINDs of animals and be specific. Please describe with a tree structure what current animals evolved form from your Kind that was on the ark at the base of the tree structure.
Example: https://tresturonsblog.files.wordpress. ... .jpg?w=545
Since you have all this info you must have studies the subject therefore you should be able to provide a name of a text book that has ALL the information with the proof. Or are you just making things up that agree with your belief system?
When exactly was this flood????
Show how the Kangaroo evolved to got to where they live now for the Kind that was on the ARK.
I will be interested if you can answer any of these.
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #229
According to bible chronology, the rains started late November 2370 BCE.Donray wrote: When exactly was this flood?
Further reading
http://wol.jw.org/fr/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2003361#h=9
Related Posts....
TIMELINES
Does not the bible say the earth is a few thousand years old?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 842#983842
Are all scientific/ historical timelines accurate?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 076#984076
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Post #230
What I find amazing is that there are 3 decks to the Ark but only one window on the top deck. With all those animals it must have stunk real bad with very little ventilation. Plus how did Noah get rid of the animal dung? Noah and his family must have been very busy hauling dung up to the window to get rid of it. Unless God caused the animals to all be constipated.....
