Apparently over 70 people in one go.
This is according to Exodus chapter 24, verses 9 - 12.
So is this clear, that those elders along with Moses actually saw the face of God and even ate and drank in His presence?
I had thought only Moses got that close to God who took great precautions earlier about this.
Who has seen God?
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #11Perhaps to prove his later statement that no human can look at him and still live would be inaccurate and his word cannot to be relied on. What other explication can there be ? .... unless your understanding is incorrect.
I cannot see any other option ...
The expression "trying to have your cake and eat it" comes to mind.1. Your reading is correct - the 70 literally saw God yet lived and God's later statement was untrue
2. Your reading is incorrect - the 70 saw God in vision and Gods later statement holds true.
JW
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #12I am afraid I do not understand.
70 people couldn't have had the same vision. They must have actually seen God because He wanted them to.
So, why was it important for them to see God -something very unique?
There must be explanations for these things, that I am not yet able to comprehend.
70 people couldn't have had the same vision. They must have actually seen God because He wanted them to.
So, why was it important for them to see God -something very unique?
There must be explanations for these things, that I am not yet able to comprehend.
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #14They couldnt literally see God any more than you can get within 10 feet of the sun and not be burt to a sizzle; but God could grant them a vision of his glory, as was the case with Moses, Ezekiel and other Prophets of old (compare Acts 7:55). Like the Apotle John in the Revelation, they saw a visual manifestation of what it would be like to see the Almighty. They didn't - couldnt - have literally seen God Himself.
Can four?
MATTHEW 17:9
As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them [the FOUR Apostles] : “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”
You have been offered an explanation for these things which you promptly reject yet still imply you are waiting for an explanation. Nobody can comprehend the bible while at the same time contradicting the bible.
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Did the disciple witness actual dead people talking at the transfiguration?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #15[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]
Well, you are giving me the Jehovah's Witnesses perspective. It is one view, but I don't go with it. This was not a vision, visions are different, they are symbolic and dreamlike, though real and valid. If it was a collective vision, it would say so?
I think if the Bible says they all saw God, then they did. I would like to hear other opinions too.
Well, you are giving me the Jehovah's Witnesses perspective. It is one view, but I don't go with it. This was not a vision, visions are different, they are symbolic and dreamlike, though real and valid. If it was a collective vision, it would say so?
I think if the Bible says they all saw God, then they did. I would like to hear other opinions too.
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #16It did, the Hebrew word can mean vision, did you not read my earlier post?
viewtopic.php?p=1095551#p1095551
Be my guest but you're not going to get any other options apart from your usual "the bible is a mystery" (which I suspect will fully satisfy you) or, if an atheist that happens across your post, their usual "that's just one of the many contradictions that make the bible unreliable".
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #17Dear JW’s,
I strongly and respectfully disagree with you. You are entitled to your own private opinions and interpretations. For indeed that is all that you can offer.
If one were to agree with you, then one would have to remove or totally ignore all of the following scriptures quoted showing otherwise.
Much more could be given, but for brevity’s sake, we will quote only a few.
As for me and my house we will choose to believe the many testimonies of those faithful eyewitnesses of those found in the Scriptures.
Exodus 24:
9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the 70 elders of Israel went up the mountain.
10 On the mountain, these men saw the God of Israel. He was standing on something that looked like blue sapphires, as clear as the sky!
11 All the leaders of Israel saw God, but God did not destroy them. They all ate and drank together.
Genesis 32:
30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Exodus 3:6
Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
(In the above quoted verse it appears that Moses may have needed to make further preparations as shown below in Exodus 33:11)
Exodus 19:10
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11
And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Exodus 24:11
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Numbers 12: 6
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
23
But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.
1 Kings 11:9
And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Isaiah 6:
5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 5:
8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
(What a marvelous promise from the living Christ wherein all are promised that as we sanctify ourselves and cultivate a condition of becoming “pure in heart” we may become worthy of seeing God for ourselves!)
Acts 7:
55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Hebrews 12:
14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
(In the above Paul makes it very plain regarding the level of obedience and holiness one must attain to see the face of God.)
1 John 3:
2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Revelation 1:
17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 22:
3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
If you choose not to purify and sanctify yourselves and therefore fail to develop a pure heart and rob yourselves of the personal privilege of beholding the face of God, that is your problem.
Kind regards,
RW
I strongly and respectfully disagree with you. You are entitled to your own private opinions and interpretations. For indeed that is all that you can offer.
If one were to agree with you, then one would have to remove or totally ignore all of the following scriptures quoted showing otherwise.
Much more could be given, but for brevity’s sake, we will quote only a few.
As for me and my house we will choose to believe the many testimonies of those faithful eyewitnesses of those found in the Scriptures.
Exodus 24:
9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the 70 elders of Israel went up the mountain.
10 On the mountain, these men saw the God of Israel. He was standing on something that looked like blue sapphires, as clear as the sky!
11 All the leaders of Israel saw God, but God did not destroy them. They all ate and drank together.
Genesis 32:
30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Exodus 3:6
Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
(In the above quoted verse it appears that Moses may have needed to make further preparations as shown below in Exodus 33:11)
Exodus 19:10
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11
And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
Exodus 24:11
And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Numbers 12: 6
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8
With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
23
But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as these.
1 Kings 11:9
And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,
Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Isaiah 6:
5
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Matthew 5:
8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
(What a marvelous promise from the living Christ wherein all are promised that as we sanctify ourselves and cultivate a condition of becoming “pure in heart” we may become worthy of seeing God for ourselves!)
Acts 7:
55
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Hebrews 12:
14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
(In the above Paul makes it very plain regarding the level of obedience and holiness one must attain to see the face of God.)
1 John 3:
2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Revelation 1:
17
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 22:
3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
If you choose not to purify and sanctify yourselves and therefore fail to develop a pure heart and rob yourselves of the personal privilege of beholding the face of God, that is your problem.
Kind regards,
RW
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #18RELATED POSTSRevelations won wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:19 pm
Exodus 24:
9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the 70 elders of Israel went up the mountain.
10 On the mountain, these men saw the God of Israel. He was standing on something that looked like blue sapphires, as clear as the sky!
11 All the leaders of Israel saw God, but God did not destroy them. They all ate and drank together.
Genesis 32: 30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
[...]
Exodus 33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
[...]
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
[...]
Genesis 32:30 contradict John 1:18?
viewtopic.php?p=867226#p867226
Who visited Abraham [GENESIS 18:1]?
viewtopic.php?p=937432#p937432
Did Moses see God's face?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 20#p825120
What does the bible mean when it says Moses spoke to God "face to face"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p812578
What does the bible mean when it says Moses spoke with God "face to face"? [Exodus 33:11; Deut 34:10]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p825375
"Face" in Hebrew idiom? (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p825583
Did the 70 elders literally see God? [Exodus 24:9, 11]
viewtopic.php?p=1095551#p1095551
Why are we told the 70 elder's lives were spared if they only saw a vision?
viewtopic.php?p=1095593#p1095593
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #19WILL THE RIGHTEOUS EVER LITERALLY SEE GOD?
Yes. God is invisible to humans but not to his spirit children in heaven (angels). All spirit anointed born again Christians have the hope of being resurrected to spirit life in heaven and thereafter having the privilege of actually seeing the Almighty.
WHAT ABOUT THE FAITHFULL THAT WILL LIVE FOREVER IN EARTH?
While they will likely never see God in the literal sense due to the physical limitations of being human, they will "see" God in the figurative sense like the righteous men ans women of old (such as Job) who came to understand Him in a fuller sense.
DID NOT SOME OF THESE ANCIENTS LITERALLY SEE GOD?
No, none of them did. Often they were communicating with angels that represented God, were given divine visions of God or were witnesses of divine manifestations of his glory but none of them literally saw God as Jehovah was explicit in his explanation that no man can see God and live.
Yes. God is invisible to humans but not to his spirit children in heaven (angels). All spirit anointed born again Christians have the hope of being resurrected to spirit life in heaven and thereafter having the privilege of actually seeing the Almighty.
1 John 3: 2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Revelation 22: 3, 4
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
WHAT ABOUT THE FAITHFULL THAT WILL LIVE FOREVER IN EARTH?
While they will likely never see God in the literal sense due to the physical limitations of being human, they will "see" God in the figurative sense like the righteous men ans women of old (such as Job) who came to understand Him in a fuller sense.
Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:[/b]
Matthew 5: 8
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God
Hebrews 12: 14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord
DID NOT SOME OF THESE ANCIENTS LITERALLY SEE GOD?
No, none of them did. Often they were communicating with angels that represented God, were given divine visions of God or were witnesses of divine manifestations of his glory but none of them literally saw God as Jehovah was explicit in his explanation that no man can see God and live.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Oct 16, 2022 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Who has seen God?
Post #20Exodus 24:9-11 doesn't say they saw God's face.Miles wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 7:14 pm ...Exodus 33:20...
20 But you cannot see my face. No one can see me and continue to live.”Exodus 24:911...
9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the 70 elders of Israel went up the mountain. 10 On the mountain, these men saw the God of Israel. He was standing on something that looked like blue sapphires, as clear as the sky! 11 All the leaders of Israel saw God, but God did not destroy them. They all ate and drank together.
