Why is this called a " Christian DEbate site"

[Tex]

It seems all people do here is attack God.

It should be called an "atheist" debate site. It's most probably to get Christians to come into the lions den.

[Goat]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Christians believe him so.. but the Christain concept of 'The Christ' is a different concept of the Jewish Messiah. Jesus does not qualify for being the Jewish Messiah. Christians can call Jesus anything they want, but they do not have the right to impose their religious concepts on another religion.

The Jewish faith does not accept the Christian concept of 'The Christ' to be valid for Judaism.

Tex: Interesting.....And what will the Jewish Messiah do to us Christians when he comes? Tells us we were wrong?
Unless he is God, why should I believe the JEWISH MESSIAH? Of course he will have to come with a birth certificate and maybe some DNA....Run through the exam and then wait for the Jewish scholar to take a vote and see if this is the person they want as a Messiah.

And who said the Jewish Messiah will do ANYTHING to Christians? The Jewish messiah accomplish items for the Jewish religion., supposedly. The one big side effect allegedly will be 1000 years of peace.. and I am sure that people of all religions can benefit from that. The Jewish messiah is supposed to do things that accomplish things for THIS life, not a hypothetical next one.

Unless he is God himself....I really like to know how a man will do this?

That is why a 'messiah' hasn't come yet, and why many Jews are looking at a 'messianic' age that is a goal to be worked towards.. part of the concept of 'repairing the world' , an ideal to worked to, rather than something that will actually happen.

In the Pirke Avot (Part of the talmud), it is stated You are not expected to complete the task (of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world) but neither are you free to desist from trying. For many Jews, working towards the Messianic age is just part of the philosophical concept of Tikkum Olam (repairing the world).

The idea of the Messiah, and the Messianic age is not a central theme in Judaism and not part of the Jewish dogma.

[Tex]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Christians believe him so.. but the Christain concept of 'The Christ' is a different concept of the Jewish Messiah. Jesus does not qualify for being the Jewish Messiah. Christians can call Jesus anything they want, but they do not have the right to impose their religious concepts on another religion.

The Jewish faith does not accept the Christian concept of 'The Christ' to be valid for Judaism.

Tex: Interesting.....And what will the Jewish Messiah do to us Christians when he comes? Tells us we were wrong?
Unless he is God, why should I believe the JEWISH MESSIAH? Of course he will have to come with a birth certificate and maybe some DNA....Run through the exam and then wait for the Jewish scholar to take a vote and see if this is the person they want as a Messiah.

And who said the Jewish Messiah will do ANYTHING to Christians? The Jewish messiah accomplish items for the Jewish religion., supposedly. The one big side effect allegedly will be 1000 years of peace.. and I am sure that people of all religions can benefit from that. The Jewish messiah is supposed to do things that accomplish things for THIS life, not a hypothetical next one.

Unless he is God himself....I really like to know how a man will do this?

That is why a 'messiah' hasn't come yet, and why many Jews are looking at a 'messianic' age that is a goal to be worked towards.. part of the concept of 'repairing the world' , an ideal to worked to, rather than something that will actually happen.

In the Pirke Avot (Part of the talmud), it is stated You are not expected to complete the task (of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world) but neither are you free to desist from trying. For many Jews, working towards the Messianic age is just part of the philosophical concept of Tikkum Olam (repairing the world).

The idea of the Messiah, and the Messianic age is not a central theme in Judaism and not part of the Jewish dogma.

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

So I don't take this seriously nor do you?

[Goat]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

Christians believe him so.. but the Christain concept of 'The Christ' is a different concept of the Jewish Messiah. Jesus does not qualify for being the Jewish Messiah. Christians can call Jesus anything they want, but they do not have the right to impose their religious concepts on another religion.

The Jewish faith does not accept the Christian concept of 'The Christ' to be valid for Judaism.

Tex: Interesting.....And what will the Jewish Messiah do to us Christians when he comes? Tells us we were wrong?
Unless he is God, why should I believe the JEWISH MESSIAH? Of course he will have to come with a birth certificate and maybe some DNA....Run through the exam and then wait for the Jewish scholar to take a vote and see if this is the person they want as a Messiah.

And who said the Jewish Messiah will do ANYTHING to Christians? The Jewish messiah accomplish items for the Jewish religion., supposedly. The one big side effect allegedly will be 1000 years of peace.. and I am sure that people of all religions can benefit from that. The Jewish messiah is supposed to do things that accomplish things for THIS life, not a hypothetical next one.

Unless he is God himself....I really like to know how a man will do this?

That is why a 'messiah' hasn't come yet, and why many Jews are looking at a 'messianic' age that is a goal to be worked towards.. part of the concept of 'repairing the world' , an ideal to worked to, rather than something that will actually happen.

In the Pirke Avot (Part of the talmud), it is stated You are not expected to complete the task (of Tikkun Olam, repairing the world) but neither are you free to desist from trying. For many Jews, working towards the Messianic age is just part of the philosophical concept of Tikkum Olam (repairing the world).

The idea of the Messiah, and the Messianic age is not a central theme in Judaism and not part of the Jewish dogma.

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

So I don't take this seriously nor do you?

That IS the concept for the Orthodox, and not even all orthodox Jews. However, in the United states, most Jews are not Orthodox.

From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ssiah.html

In the modern world, Reform Judaism has long denied that there will be an individual messiah who will carry out the task of perfecting the world. Instead, the movement speaks of a future world in which human efforts, not a divinely sent messenger, will bring about a utopian age. The Reform idea has influenced many nonOrthodox Jews: The oftnoted attraction of Jews to liberal and leftwing political causes probably represents a secular attempt to usher in a messianic age.

You will find that this attitude can also be found among Conservative Jews also.

One thing about the '13 principles of faith'.. it's a GUIDE, not a catch all to Judaism. Many jews will disagree with one, or more of the various items on the list, Judaism is not as dogma bound as Christianity.. Your understranding is ,,.. well, distorted because you are looking at Judaism through the lens of what Christians believe what a religion should be.. ..

[Divine Insight]

But you are so clueless that you don't even realize it.

But that's the whole point to a debate Tex.

If it's your claim that I'm clueless, then you have to show why you believe that to be the case.

And I get to offer my rebuttals of why I feel that you haven't made a case.

As an example, let's take a look at the following verses from the Bible Genesis Chapter 3.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

My position is that I personally feel that the very idea that some supposedly benevolent all-wise infinitely intelligent God would decide to make some other entity crawl on its belly and eat dirt for the rest of its days as some sort of punishment, is unrealistic IMHO.

So what exactly is it that I have "no clue" about?

You'll have to be clear on what you believe I am clueless on, concerning my assessment of this situation. Are you suggesting that I am misunderstanding the scripture? If so, then it's up to you to explain an alternative interpretation. Perhaps you get something different from this verse, or maybe you don't take it literally, or whatever.

Whenever I assess the writings of the Bible I feel that I have no choice but to take them literally because if they require abstract metaphorical interpretations then I can pretend they mean anything I like.

In short, I reject what this verse is actually stating literally. I don't believe that a supposedly benevolent all-wise infinitely intelligent God would see any wisdom in cursing someone to crawl on their belly and eat dirt.

So in what way am I "clueless' here"

I continue on with another verse from the same chapter:

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Again, I reject this as being an ignorant reaction to the problem at hand. That's my assessment. And thus I conclude that, from my perspective, this is not how I would expect and infinitely wise benevolent supreme being to behave or react.

Again, in what way am I "clueless" here?

I'm taking the verses literally for what they claim, and I'm suggesting to you that I personally feel that these reactions are ignorant and unwise.

I can't see where a "Creator" who actually desires to create humans to worship and serve him, would actually use babies and procreation as a means of punishment.

That's my honest and sincere assessment on this matter.

So in what way am I clueless here?

This whole fall from grace story is the very basis of the Bible.

If I'm already having grave concerns and problems with this opening story, things are only going to get worse as we get deeper into this cannon of fables.

And as far as I'm concerned, at this point I already have legitimate reasons for referring to them as fables. After all, I see no reason to give serious respect to stories that start out having this God cursing someone to crawl on their belly and eat dirt as a form of punishment. And I also can't see a creator cursing a woman who will be giving birth to this God's Children and using procreation as a means of punishment as well.

I reject these biblical stories basically on page one. I even have objections and concerns prior to this chapter.

And here we are in the very beginning of Genesis.

It only gets worse as these stories unfold.

But for now, can you explain why my concerns above are so "clueless" as you claim?

In what way am I "clueless"?

I'm also concerned with why an all-powerful all-wise God would have allowed an evil serpent into the Garden of Eden in the first place.

If he wanted to test Adam and Eve, why not allow them to decide on their own merit whether or not they want to eat this forbidden fruit?

This particular story has me wondering if Adam and Eve would have ever fallen from grace on their own. If it wasn't their idea, and they were beguiled by an evil serpent whilst in a state of complete naive innocence, I have a problem with that as well.

In short, Tex, I can't even see a way to make these stories reasonable.

IMHO, they are totally unreasonable.

What is so "clueless" about that?

We're right here at the beginning of Genesis. Barely into chapter 3. We shouldn't even need to have a clue about the rest of the biblical stories at this point. If this beginning story can't even be made to be reasonable, I see no reason to even bother moving forward from there.

I would have tossed the whole religion away right here in Genesis chapter 3. No need to even read any further at that point, as far as I'm concerned.

But I have read the whole Bible, and I've discovered that I was indeed right. It only gets far worse and more absurd as it continues, IMHO.

So if you're going to accuse me of being "clueless" you better back up that charge.

In what way is my assessment of the above verses "clueless"?

I don't believe an all-wise all-intelligent God would behave this way.

Perhaps you do?

But that doesn't mean I'm clueless. All it means is that we have dramatically different ideas on what constitutes wisdom and intelligence. That's all.

[cnorman18]

The New Testament is not Scripture to Jews. That means only that it is not authoritative for us, which is not the same as saying it is false. I have no knowledge of that and do not claim to. I have, for the record, studied the NT extensively under world-class scholars at Southern Methodist University, and I regard NONE of it as "fable" or "fiction" or anything of the kind. The fact that I no longer accept it as Scripture does not mean or imply any such thing.

I do not even regard the Hebrew Bible as "the Word of God" as you probably do; I regard it as the literature of the Jewish people, and neither history, science treatise, nor the direct words of the Almighty. Again, that is not the same as saying it is "false" or a "fable."

Cnorman,

I can't imagine you giving Tex any more respect than you already have. You've given him the ultimate respect.

If he can't see the profound respect that you are giving him by now, he never will see it.

Thanks. That is my intention. Though it does not seem to matter, I shall persevere.

[Tex]

But you are so clueless that you don't even realize it.

But that's the whole point to a debate Tex.

If it's your claim that I'm clueless, then you have to show why you believe that to be the case.

And I get to offer my rebuttals of why I feel that you haven't made a case.

As an example, let's take a look at the following verses from the Bible Genesis Chapter 3.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

My position is that I personally feel that the very idea that some supposedly benevolent all-wise infinitely intelligent God would decide to make some other entity crawl on its belly and eat dirt for the rest of its days as some sort of punishment, is unrealistic IMHO.

So what exactly is it that I have "no clue" about?

You'll have to be clear on what you believe I am clueless on, concerning my assessment of this situation. Are you suggesting that I am misunderstanding the scripture? If so, then it's up to you to explain an alternative interpretation. Perhaps you get something different from this verse, or maybe you don't take it literally, or whatever.

Whenever I assess the writings of the Bible I feel that I have no choice but to take them literally because if they require abstract metaphorical interpretations then I can pretend they mean anything I like.

In short, I reject what this verse is actually stating literally. I don't believe that a supposedly benevolent all-wise infinitely intelligent God would see any wisdom in cursing someone to crawl on their belly and eat dirt.

So in what way am I "clueless' here"

I continue on with another verse from the same chapter:

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Again, I reject this as being an ignorant reaction to the problem at hand. That's my assessment. And thus I conclude that, from my perspective, this is not how I would expect and infinitely wise benevolent supreme being to behave or react.

Again, in what way am I "clueless" here?

I'm taking the verses literally for what they claim, and I'm suggesting to you that I personally feel that these reactions are ignorant and unwise.

I can't see where a "Creator" who actually desires to create humans to worship and serve him, would actually use babies and procreation as a means of punishment.

That's my honest and sincere assessment on this matter.

So in what way am I clueless here?

This whole fall from grace story is the very basis of the Bible.

If I'm already having grave concerns and problems with this opening story, things are only going to get worse as we get deeper into this cannon of fables.

And as far as I'm concerned, at this point I already have legitimate reasons for referring to them as fables. After all, I see no reason to give serious respect to stories that start out having this God cursing someone to crawl on their belly and eat dirt as a form of punishment. And I also can't see a creator cursing a woman who will be giving birth to this God's Children and using procreation as a means of punishment as well.

I reject these biblical stories basically on page one. I even have objections and concerns prior to this chapter.

And here we are in the very beginning of Genesis.

It only gets worse as these stories unfold.

But for now, can you explain why my concerns above are so "clueless" as you claim?

In what way am I "clueless"?

I'm also concerned with why an all-powerful all-wise God would have allowed an evil serpent into the Garden of Eden in the first place.

If he wanted to test Adam and Eve, why not allow them to decide on their own merit whether or not they want to eat this forbidden fruit?

This particular story has me wondering if Adam and Eve would have ever fallen from grace on their own. If it wasn't their idea, and they were beguiled by an evil serpent whilst in a state of complete naive innocence, I have a problem with that as well.

In short, Tex, I can't even see a way to make these stories reasonable.

IMHO, they are totally unreasonable.

What is so "clueless" about that?

We're right here at the beginning of Genesis. Barely into chapter 3. We shouldn't even need to have a clue about the rest of the biblical stories at this point. If this beginning story can't even be made to be reasonable, I see no reason to even bother moving forward from there.

I would have tossed the whole religion away right here in Genesis chapter 3. No need to even read any further at that point, as far as I'm concerned.

But I have read the whole Bible, and I've discovered that I was indeed right. It only gets far worse and more absurd as it continues, IMHO.

So if you're going to accuse me of being "clueless" you better back up that charge.

In what way is my assessment of the above verses "clueless"?

I don't believe an all-wise all-intelligent God would behave this way.

Perhaps you do?

But that doesn't mean I'm clueless. All it means is that we have dramatically different ideas on what constitutes wisdom and intelligence. That's all.

Tex: You see what I mean.....I was talking about "clueless" that you don't even realize you insult Christians, when you say our beliefs are stupid and ignorant.

[cnorman18]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

That would be for Christians to decide, just as whether or not he was the Jewish Messiah is for Jews to decide. I have no basis for an opinion and no particular interest in the question, so my answer can only be "I do not claim to know."

[Tex]

As for Genesis, you see the world we live in. Snakes do eat dust and women are in deep pain when in Labour.

So again....any god you would believe in, created this mess. So your complaints fall to deaf ears.

We know something must have happen for man to be on this planet. As you can see, we don't live in the eternal world where God is.

Tell me....what story would be good enough for you, so you can be happy about the god you want to imagine? Death is everywhere.

You don't want to believe in a monster.....But if we look at the world through your eyes only a monster could have done this. So again....where is your perfect God that has not created death...Maybe I'm on the wrong planet.

[Tex]

That is another falsehood. I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the Christ. Feel free to find a quote where I did; I have over 7,000 posts here -- better start hunting.

Tex: Word games again.....Do you believe Lord Jesus to be the Christ then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ

That would be for Christians to decide, just as whether or not he was the Jewish Messiah is for Jews to decide. I have no basis for an opinion and no particular interest in the question, so my answer can only be "I do not claim to know."

Just for the record....Anytime a Jew accept him as the Messiah.....Lord Jesus is the their Messiah. Not much you could do about that. Even if you believe the Lord was a fake.

[micatala]

Tex: Blah Blah Blah.....Do even realize that you have to except LOrd Jesus as your Savior to be a Christian? Is that to hard for you to understand?

Tex: Yet again....What you say is Not true..... and I say it is. And I really don't care what you think. From what I read from your posts, you are absolutely clueless to what you believe in. You have made up your own beliefs and are trying to say that mine are false. Who are you to tell ME that my believes are false?
So before you point the finger look at yourself.

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