Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[JehovahsWitness]

An entity who supposedly has those two traits doesn't need to be flexible, because...why would he need to be?

He doesn't need to be (logically an omnipotent God needs nothing) but since he is omnipotent he can be anything he wants including flexible if he so choses.

QUESTION Why would and omnipotent God choose to be flexible?

Flexibility is a positive quality if one is going to adapt to situations. Since an omnipotent God could logically control any situation, his displaying flexibility and changing a chosen course of action or opinion (which biblically God has done on a number of occasions*) means that he has evidently not chosen to impose his will and/or has restricted his power of foreknowledge of a given situation.


* For example, the bible speaks of God testing Abraham with a request to sacrifice his son and declaring, only after having seen that Abraham was willing to obey "now, I do know...". There is also the case of the Ninevah, a city God expressed his intention to destroy but upon their repentance, changed his mind and spared the city the planned destruction.





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OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ...SELECTIVE FOREKNOWLEDGE

[JehovahsWitness]

It is one thing to interpret the Bible; quite another to presume to speak for God.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out, you are right, I was wrong to give the impression I was speaking from a point of view of fully knowing the mind of God (I don't believe anyone can) I should have pointed out that these are my personal beliefs based on my own personal analysis of scripture.

I repeat, you are right I was wrong not to make clear I cannot speak for God beyond what the bible commissions believers to do. I was as I said only expressing opinion, these are just my personal beliefs and opinions. You are of course more than welcome to feel my opinions to be without scriptural foundation a violation of the principle of sola scriptura and "quite absurd".

No guideline violations were intended.

Peace to you and yours,


JW

[marco]

Yes, thank you for pointing that out, you are right, I was wrong to give the impression I was speaking from a point of view of fully knowing the mind of God (I don't believe anyone can)

Your candour does you great credit, JW. We are none of us infallible, so there is no need for us to linger on unintentional errors.

I was as I said only expressing opinion, these are just my personal beliefs and opinions. You are of course more than welcome to feel my opinions to be without scriptural foundation a violation of the principle of sola scriptura and "quite absurd".

Guessing the mind of God may be absurd, JW, but your opinions are not. In fact your opinions are hugely interesting.

If we obtain Paradise on earth, no doubt all wrongs will be put right and we will see with greater clarity; at least some of us will. Meantime we must make do with the flawed instruments we have been born with. Go well.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 127 by onewithhim]




[center]Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Three: It works like magic[/center]

I would not say that "everything works according to God's plans."

In that case, God's will can be thwarted.
God in this case would not be "all powerful" or "all knowing".

Is that the kind of God you believe in?

He has an over-all plan or purpose (which will come about, no matter what), but not everything that happens is due to His artifice.

So, it seems that you are saying that no matter what, God's plan is working according to God's plan. If he wants flowers to grow.. it might rain today, or tomorrow, but it's going to RAIN eventually.

Otherwise, the flower wont grow.
It would wither and die.

So, even though we might think we have free will in the plan?..It's just an illusion.
God is going to get exactly what God wanted to get.

A nice lovely flower, or a dried out dead one.
A saved soul, or one that burns in hell or whatever.

Welcome to no real choice at all.
God's gonna get what God's wanted to get all along.

In other words, He has guaranteed that ultimately this planet will actually BE the planet he intended it to be, and mankind will live on it forever, the way he purposed it to be in the beginning, but everything that happens in between his direct actions (first, the creation, and second, the redemption of mankind and the establishment of God's own government) is not necessarily of Jehovah's doing.

Sure, why not?

Lets say that things happen all randomly.. God sets it all in MOTION with a plan.. then.. the chips fall where they fall...

But they always fall exactly where God wanted them to fall all along.
All this free will stuff was just for show.

Heaven or hell for ya?
He already knows...

Twas in the plan.

There are many things he ALLOWS, but only for a time. Whatever happens, Jehovah's plan will come to fruition in the end.

Ok, fair enough.

So, imagine something like that in the real world.
Imagine say, a deck of ordinary playing cards.

God throws the cards UP into the air.. real high.

Then the cards all fall back down quite randomly.
Except when we turn them over.

Whatever order God wanted to the cards to be in before he threw them? ... he gets.
Every time.

It only LOOKS random until we look at the cards on the ground.
They aren't "random" at all.


It's like magic.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 127 by onewithhim]




[center]Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Three: It works like magic[/center]

I would not say that "everything works according to God's plans."

In that case, God's will can be thwarted.
God in this case would not be "all powerful" or "all knowing".

Is that the kind of God you believe in?

He has an over-all plan or purpose (which will come about, no matter what), but not everything that happens is due to His artifice.

So, it seems that you are saying that no matter what, God's plan is working according to God's plan. If he wants flowers to grow.. it might rain today, or tomorrow, but it's going to RAIN eventually.

Otherwise, the flower wont grow.
It would wither and die.

So, even though we might think we have free will in the plan?..It's just an illusion.
God is going to get exactly what God wanted to get.

A nice lovely flower, or a dried out dead one.
A saved soul, or one that burns in hell or whatever.

Welcome to no real choice at all.
God's gonna get what God's wanted to get all along.

In other words, He has guaranteed that ultimately this planet will actually BE the planet he intended it to be, and mankind will live on it forever, the way he purposed it to be in the beginning, but everything that happens in between his direct actions (first, the creation, and second, the redemption of mankind and the establishment of God's own government) is not necessarily of Jehovah's doing.

Sure, why not?

Lets say that things happen all randomly.. God sets it all in MOTION with a plan.. then.. the chips fall where they fall...

But they always fall exactly where God wanted them to fall all along.
All this free will stuff was just for show.

Heaven or hell for ya?
He already knows...

Twas in the plan.

There are many things he ALLOWS, but only for a time. Whatever happens, Jehovah's plan will come to fruition in the end.

Ok, fair enough.

So, imagine something like that in the real world.
Imagine say, a deck of ordinary playing cards.

God throws the cards UP into the air.. real high.

Then the cards all fall back down quite randomly.
Except when we turn them over.

Whatever order God wanted to the cards to be in before he threw them? ... he gets.
Every time.

It only LOOKS random until we look at the cards on the ground.
They aren't "random" at all.


It's like magic.

Working from the top down:

I have presented how I view God's all-knowingness; he chooses sometimes NOT to know. So he refrains from knowing all things all of the time. Life is more interesting for him that way, I am sure. It also means that he can offer eternal life to people without tongue-in-cheek. He can be genuine, unhypocritical.

I said that not everything goes along with God's plans. His ultimate purpose will always be fulfilled, but that doesn't mean that he guides every little thing that happens. A bus full of people goes over the shoulder of the road. Was that the will of God? Hardly. A lunatic terrorist blows himself up in a crowded mall. God's will? Not on your life.

If he wants certain flowers to grow, he will make sure they grow.

We DO have free will, and that's why he doesn't direct every little thing. He chooses to wait and see what people will do, in most cases. Why are you saying we really don't have choices? We certainly do.....and how we make those choices will determine how we end up in the end, when God brings about the Paradise. His Paradise is certain. Who will be enjoying it depends on what choices each individual makes.

The chips don't always fall the way Jehovah would want them to fall. He wants ALL people to attain to repentence and live, but there will be some who will not accept his offer.

He throws the cards up, but he chooses not to know how they will fall....that is, the details of life for humans on Earth. The big events WILL happen, no matter what. If every person decides to refuse to listen to him and nobody is in Paradise, there will still be Paradise. If everyone (or just a few) accepts his offer, that is fine---Paradise will happen, whether billions of people or a handful. Do you see the difference between what God has planned or purposed and what God gets involved in on a day-to-day basis?


.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 135 by onewithhim]


[center]
Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Four : Where not knowing everything is the very same as knowing everything.[/center]

I have presented how I view God's all-knowingness; he chooses sometimes NOT to know.

________________

"BORING LOGIC LECTURE" ALERT:

God either knows everything or he does not know everything.
You just cant have it both ways.. having your cake and eat it too does not work in logic, I'm afraid.

∼(p • ∼p)

What that means is that its NOT true that P is identical to the negation of P.

So, let's say that P here stands for the premise that God knows everything:
The expression ∼(p • ∼p) now means that it is NOT true that God knows everything is identical to God not knowing everything.

For whatever reason, even if he blinds himself quite on purpose, if God doesn't know something he doesn't know everything. He almost knows everything, maybe, but not quite all.

Hence, a god who doesn't know everything can't be called "omniscient" or "all-knowing".

________________


Sorry.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 135 by onewithhim]



[center]
Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Five: It might NOT work like magic after all[/center]

I said that not everything goes along with God's plans. His ultimate purpose will always be fulfilled, but that doesn't mean that he guides every little thing that happens.

Right.
I got that.

He doesn't "micro manage" day to day...
He just makes sure that he gets his way.

What's his way today?
Apparently, onewithhim can say.

A bus full of people goes over the shoulder of the road. Was that the will of God? Hardly. A lunatic terrorist blows himself up in a crowded mall. God's will? Not on your life.

if I take your word on God's will, bet my life, I will.

What's God's way today?
Apparently, onewithhim can say.

If he wants certain flowers to grow, he will make sure they grow.

Yup, that's what I said.
If he wants it to grow.. he will get his way.. It will rain someday.
There will be sun, too. And nutrients. And no deer to eat the shoot. And no tornado.. or a waskelly wabbit.

We DO have free will, and that's why he doesn't direct every little thing.

That's the magic in it.
Even though God doesn't even LOOK at all.. nothing up his sleeves, doesn't direct every little thing, he still gets his way in the end.

Amazing trick, that.

( DOES he get his way in the end? )

He chooses to wait and see what people will do, in most cases.

And in some cases, they do what he wants them to do so no magic needed.
God saves having to do magic that way.

Thank you very much, Christians.
BOOO to the non-Christians.

Why are you saying we really don't have choices?

I tried to explain that if God always GITS what he wants... its GOD'S who is the only one with the choices here.. the rest of us have to do what he says.. or end up doing what he says. Either way, in the end, we end up doing what he says. OR ELSE.

It's pretty much his way or the highway ( to hell if you know your AC/DC )
https://www.google.ca/#q=highway+to+hell

If you think we had any real choice, ok.

We certainly do.....and how we make those choices will determine how we end up in the end, when God brings about the Paradise. His Paradise is certain. Who will be enjoying it depends on what choices each individual makes.

His Paradise is certain, you say.

And I also think you said that it's also pretty certain that God will get his way in the end. Who goes up or down was all planed out long ago.

UNLESS, of course, you believe that God gets to be surprised in the end.. like a nicely packaged xmas gift. You HOPE its a Barbie, but will accept any kind of doll..

Merry Xmas God!
Hope you like your big surprise.

The chips don't always fall the way Jehovah would want them to fall. He wants ALL people to attain to repentence and live, but there will be some who will not accept his offer.

Wouldn't it be AWFUL for God though, if everybody just rejected him?
What would he do then? I'd be so disappointed if my creating of the universe was a complete bust, don't you think?

I suppose, if he really wanted, he could start over until he got what he wanted.
Try, try again, I suppose.

I really hope he gets what he wanted.
Being xmas time and all.

He throws the cards up, but he chooses not to know how they will fall....that is, the details of life for humans on Earth. The big events WILL happen, no matter what.

I don't think you quite understand the idea of the random but not random cards.
If GOD PLANNED for the cards to fall ONE way and ONE way only, then he gets that result. In the end.

Unless, of course you think that God is going to wait for the big surprise at the end and has no clue as to how the cards will fall at all. Then God isn't a magician at all.. he is just like the rest of us who throws a bunch of cards up in the air.

No magic here, folks.
Move along, move along.. and pick up those cards, you loiterer.

If every person decides to refuse to listen to him and nobody is in Paradise, there will still be Paradise.

Oh, right. That's what I was just talking about. It's a possibility that nobody will want what God's got on offer. Heaven would be empty except for God and the minions he already has. Just like before. Well, at least God tried. We all died.

No biggie?

If everyone (or just a few) accepts his offer, that is fine---Paradise will happen, whether billions of people or a handful.

Well, that means that God DOESN'T necessarily gets what he wants.
It's all a big surprise.. maybe heaven is devoid of humanoid, or maybe not.

Time and people will tell how the plan will end up ... not God.

Do you see the difference between what God has planned or purposed and what God gets involved in on a day-to-day basis?

Well a bit yeah.

God has no say in what's going to happen. All that work.. might be for naught.
Poor god.

I wish him well.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 135 by onewithhim]


[center]
Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Four : Where not knowing everything is the very same as knowing everything.[/center]

I have presented how I view God's all-knowingness; he chooses sometimes NOT to know.

________________

"BORING LOGIC LECTURE" ALERT:

God either knows everything or he does not know everything.
You just cant have it both ways.. having your cake and eat it too does not work in logic, I'm afraid.

∼(p • ∼p)

What that means is that its NOT true that P is identical to the negation of P.

So, let's say that P here stands for the premise that God knows everything:
The expression ∼(p • ∼p) now means that it is NOT true that God knows everything is identical to God not knowing everything.

For whatever reason, even if he blinds himself quite on purpose, if God doesn't know something he doesn't know everything. He almost knows everything, maybe, but not quite all.

Hence, a god who doesn't know everything can't be called "omniscient" or "all-knowing".

________________


Sorry.

Mmm hmmm. The bottom line is, however, that God CAN know everything if He so chooses.

I liked this expression in one research source:

"The argument that God's not foreknowing everything in full detail is evidence that God is imperfect, is, in reality, a capricious view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. Ultimately, God's own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect. (Deut.32:4; 2Samuel 22:31; Isaiah 46:10)"



Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.1, page 853.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 138 by onewithhim]





[center]Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Five : Only God can know God[/center]

Mmm hmmm. The bottom line is, however, that God CAN know everything if He so chooses.

Ok, let's say that God can.. an omniscient god would...

I liked this expression in one research source:

"The argument that God's not foreknowing everything in full detail is evidence that God is imperfect, is, in reality, a capricious view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. Ultimately, God's own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect. (Deut.32:4; 2Samuel 22:31; Isaiah 46:10)"

Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.1, page 853

That's interesting..

So, in other words, doesn't that mean that nobody can decide down here if God is perfect or not, omniscient or not, good or not, and so on?

Only the god itself can have a REAL idea of what the god actually IS?


How do you interpret that quote?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 138 by onewithhim]





[center]Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Five : Only God can know God[/center]

Mmm hmmm. The bottom line is, however, that God CAN know everything if He so chooses.

Ok, let's say that God can.. an omniscient god would...

I liked this expression in one research source:

"The argument that God's not foreknowing everything in full detail is evidence that God is imperfect, is, in reality, a capricious view of perfection. Perfection, correctly defined, does not demand such an absolute, all-embracing extension, inasmuch as the perfection of anything actually depends upon its measuring up completely to the standards of excellence set by one qualified to judge its merits. Ultimately, God's own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, are the deciding factors as to whether anything is perfect. (Deut.32:4; 2Samuel 22:31; Isaiah 46:10)"

Insight on the Scriptures, Vol.1, page 853

That's interesting..

So, in other words, doesn't that mean that nobody can decide down here if God is perfect or not, omniscient or not, good or not, and so on?

Only the god itself can have a REAL idea of what the god actually IS?


How do you interpret that quote?

That it doesn't matter, for example, if some human says that "God couldn't be omniscient, or, the kind of God he should be, because he does not know everything all the time." It is God who decides what "omniscient" means and what kind of God he should be, and if he chooses to NOT know everything all the time, he is still the kind of God he should be, because only he is capable of defining what he should be.

I think you have the right idea. That "only the god itself can have a real idea of what the god actually is," and what he should be.


.