"To the glory of God the Father"

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:39 am

Paul literally sings the praises of Jesus with a fervor that had been previously reserved for God alone. Then he adds the disclaimer "to the glory of God the Father".

But it seems that in effect, only (or mainly) the Son is really glorified in conventional, Trinitarian Christianity.

consider:

-How many hymns have been composed glorifying Jesus as compared with the number of hyms glorifying the Father? Or for that matter, the Holy Spirit?
-and how many litanies?
-It seems that one hears such phrases as "praise Jesus", "bring it to Jesus", "ask Jesus", "thank you Jesus" as often (or more than) similar phrases addressed to the Father.
-When the average Trinitarian hears the word "Lord" do they understand it to mean, Jehovah? Or Jesus.
-When the average Trinitarian uses the word "Lord, do they mean Jehovah? Or Jesus.

For debate:

Is such shifting of the glory and emphasis,( from the Father to the Son) the inevitable result of Divinizing the mediator, in this case Jesus?

Is this what has to happen when folks make a God out of Jesus?

Is all this Jesus worship, really "to the glory of God the Father"? Or mainly to the glory of the Son.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:52 am

I'd really like to know what a JW thinks on this. How can they spend so much time following and praising not God. You simply can't get past the fact the NT focuses on a man that for them is not God.

Monta · Post by **Monta** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:31 am

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"Paul literally sings the praises of Jesus with a fervor that had been previously reserved for God alone. Then he adds the disclaimer "to the glory of God the Father". "

What yu are offering is only part of the sentence and that's not good enough.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:33 am

Monta wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"Paul literally sings the praises of Jesus with a fervor that had been previously reserved for God alone. Then he adds the disclaimer "to the glory of God the Father". "

What yu are offering is only part of the sentence and that's not good enough.

That is the part the OP is focused on. If you want to provide additional material, please do, but expalain the additional verse material's relevance, and why the portion I quoted is "not good enough".

TripleZ · Post by **TripleZ** » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:04 pm

Wootah wrote: I'd really like to know what a JW thinks on this. How can they spend so much time following and praising not God. You simply can't get past the fact the NT focuses on a man that for them is not God.

mind you and with all respect you pose your suppositions about Paul here. Paul went from hating Yeshua and all His followers, to what, witnessing to us Gentiles about Salvation, which only God Himself could provide for us through His Only Begotten Son..S

So,, how many, do you think really know the reason and the way for this ?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:40 am

Wootah wrote:I'd really like to know what a JW thinks on this.

On what exactly? EJ raises many points in his OP, many of which I have already written about extensively in the pages of this forum.

RELATED POSTS

Does Paul emphasis Jesus more that God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 31#p857531

Do the writings of Paul contradict Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p419322

Do the writings of Paul contradict Jesus on the question of commanements and everlasting life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 68#p419968

Whose is the greatest name?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 84#p854184

For further details please go to other posts related to ...

CHRISTIANITY, THE MOSIAC LAW and ...THE WRITING OF THE APOSTLE PAUL

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:01 am

Wootah wrote: How can [Jehovah's Witnesses] spend so much time following and praising not God.

Jehovah's Witnesses "spend so much time following and praising God" . We also spend time following and praising the son of God. This is possible because we are Christian Witnesses of Jehovah and as such understand the position both Almighty God and Jesus should have in worship.

WHOSE WITNESSES?

Jehovah's Witnesses adopted our name on July 26, 1931. we chose this name for a reason. Our name indicates clearly to all what we view our primary religious purpose to be, namely to vindicate and sanctifity the name of Almighty God Jehovah. All worship is directly EXCLUSIVELY to Jehovah the Father

CAN ONE BE A CHRISTIAN NON-TRINITARIAN?

There are those that believe that it would be wrong to spend a lifetime following someone that is not Almighty God. Their position is that if we follow Jesus he MUST be God or we shouldn't be following him. This is faulty reasoning. Firstly following someone isn't worshipping them. Jesus' invitation to follow him (Jesus') means to do copy Jesus, listen to him, obey his commands. The first and formost command of God is to love YHWH/Jehova above all else (that would include loving God above Jesus).

JOHN 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

The above scripture makes it clear, following Jesus as dedicated Christians is a means to an end, the end purpose being to come to the Father. Jesus did not say we should come to the Son but that we should go through the son, learn from him, and copy him in order to gain access to the object of our worship, the Father.

To illustrate: Imagine you were lost deep in a forest. You want to get home but cannot find your way, without help you will die. And experienced guide is sent to save you, he finds you and invites you to follow him closely, listen to his directions and instructions and he will lead you home. Is the guide the home? Is it a contradiction "spending all your time following" the guide if guide isn't your home?

In the same way Jehovah/YHWH is our "home" the one to whom we belong, but mankind has been lost and needed a guide, to teach us the way to find God and worship him acceptably. Jesus doesn't have to *be* God to show us the way to God.

CONCLUSION: Jehovah's Witnesses are Christian and fully recognize Christ's central role in salvation and the chief mediator of our faith. All true Christians should praise, honour, and follow Jesus, not because he is GOD but because he is our guide to God.

RELATED POSTS

Who did Jesus say we should worship?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 696#863696

Are Jehovah's Witness Christian?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 340#837340

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:43 am

Wootah wrote: You simply can't get past the fact the NT focuses on a man that for [Jehovah's Witnesses] is not God.

If by that man you are referring to Jesus, why would we WANT to "get away from this fact"? Jehovah's Witnesses believe Christ to be the long promised Messiah and the chief agent for life. We believe that the Christian Greek scriptures including the four gospels to exist for the primary purpose of explaining the message and purpose of that one, Jesus Christ.

THE ROLE OF JESUS

There is no QUESTION that Jesus features largely in the content of the Christian bile, but there is also no question either that both Jesus and the Christian writers, understood that the Messiah was sent by JEHOVAH God the Father, that the Father was to be the focus of all worship and that everything Jesus did and said was at the Father's initiative and to His (YHWH's) glory.

JOHN 5:30
I can of mine own self do nothing [...] I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.- JESUS CHRIST

Jesus rarely spoke of himself in the first person (*I*) often favoring speaking of himself as "the son of man". His spoke of God the Father at length, always focusing on his (Jesus') role as a messenger and envoy of that one. The Christian writers, including Paul, understood this and never renegated the Father to a secondary position. While the gospels of course mention Jesus hundreds of times, since they constitute a detailed account of his (Jesus) life, one should not jump to the conclusion that each mention of the name Jesus is a verse emphasising exclusivity of focus. In other words, when we see Jesus he is more often than not saying or demonstrating how his followers should "Look to God". Indeed cannot it be lost on the reader of the Christian bible, the lengths Jesus went to to ensure that all glory went to his Father, Jehovah God.

LUKE 18:18, 19
Then a certain ruler asked Him, Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Why do you call Me good? Jesus replied. No one is good except God alone.

JOHN 14:28
My Father is greater than I - JESUS CHRIST

MATTHEW 4:10
Jesus said to him, Be gone, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.

GETTING THE BALANCE RIGHT

Jehovah's Witnesses have not always had the balance between honoring Jesus as our leader and king, and worshipping the Father whom Jesus came to reveal. Other so-called Christians have completely lost all sense of balance, on the one hand some actually going so far as to worship Jesus as Almighty God YHWH Himself as part of a trinity and at the other extreme there are others that deny Jesus's role in providing a random sacrifice for mankind, claiming him to be an ordinary man with no special powers. Jehovah's Witnesses in contrast have striven to find a balanced view of Jesus that accurately reflects scripture. This balanced view is reflected in the current mission statement of the WATCHTOWER Jehovah's Witnesses main bible based journal which explains in the forward of every issue:[8]

THIS MAGAZINE, The Watchtower, honors Jehovah God, the Ruler of the universe. It comforts people with the good news that God's heavenly Kingdom will soon end all wickedness and transform the earth into a paradise. It promotes faith in Jesus Christ, who died so that we might gain everlasting life and who is now ruling as King of God's Kingdom. This magazine has been published continuously since 1879 and is nonpolitical. It adheres to the Bible as its authority.

Despite unfortunate move of modern English bible translators* to REMOVE the Divine Name JEHOVAH/Yaweh/Yehowah from the Christian bible, leading to much reader confusion (and misleading many readers into thinking many references to God are in fact speaking about Jesus) the point is clear: The focus on Jesus in the Christian bible is on his role as a reflection and humble servant of his Father (Jehovah). Our services, message, religious songs and prayers now rightfully reflect this biblical view.

[ *]The Jehovah's Witness New World Translation has restored the Divine Name to it's rightful place in the Christian Greek scriptures.

CONCLUSION Since Jesus is the and the Chief agent by which humans can reestablish a relationship with God, his essential role is indeed emphasised in the Christian bible, especially in the writings of the Apostle Paul. That said, a close examination of how Jesus is portrayed in scripture makes it clear he plays a role secondary to his Father and that his (Jesus') purpose was to lead humanity back to God the Father.

RELATED POSTS

Is it fitting to glorify both Jehovah and Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 956#869956

Do Jehovah's Witnesses worship Jesus?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 373#842373

Further reading: The right way to worship God.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102015155#h=11

Monta · Post by **Monta** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:09 am

Elijah John wrote:
Monta wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"Paul literally sings the praises of Jesus with a fervor that had been previously reserved for God alone. Then he adds the disclaimer "to the glory of God the Father". "

What yu are offering is only part of the sentence and that's not good enough.
That is the part the OP is focused on. If you want to provide additional material, please do, but expalain the additional verse material's relevance, and why the portion I quoted is "not good enough".

Then what about a reference. There's no such sentence.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:55 am

Monta wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Monta wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

"Paul literally sings the praises of Jesus with a fervor that had been previously reserved for God alone. Then he adds the disclaimer "to the glory of God the Father". "

What yu are offering is only part of the sentence and that's not good enough.
That is the part the OP is focused on. If you want to provide additional material, please do, but expalain the additional verse material's relevance, and why the portion I quoted is "not good enough".
Then what about a reference. There's no such sentence.

Here's the reference, Philippians 2.11

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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