If God died tomorrow, would we know? How would we know?

[ytrewq]

If God died tomorrow, would we know? How would we know?

Let’s assume for a minute that your God exists. If it (I presume gods are sexless) died tomorrow, or moved to another universe or whatever, would we know? If so, then how would we know?

Presumably atheists would claim that nothing would change. After all, science has no need of gods, so planetary motion would continue, the sky would not fall in, the sun would rise each morning as it always did and so on. And an atheist presumably believes that our morality would not change either.

But what of those that do believe in a God. How would you know if your god died? Would you know at all? How would you know?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by ytrewq]

If God died tomorrow, would we know? How would we know?

Let’s assume for a minute that your God exists. If it (I presume gods are sexless) died tomorrow, or moved to another universe or whatever, would we know? If so, then how would we know?

My own idea of GOD is that IT has always existed and will always exist, so cannot 'die' in the way you mean.

Also, my own idea of GOD is that IT is everywhere and cannot be anywhere we are not.

So at least with this one theist belief, GOD cannot either die or be thoroughly removed from individuate consciousness, other than to un-create all things so that only Consciousness remains, and form is extinguished.

This is because, my own idea of GOD is that IT is consciousness, and since we are all consciousness, we effectively are unable to exist within our particular experience, without GOD.

We are all aspects of GOD. If GOD (all consciousness) removed Its Self from this universe, then this universe might as well not exist because in order for anything to be said to exist, consciousness is that which gets to say so.

[Matthew S Islam]

If God died tomorrow, would we know? How would we know?

Let’s assume for a minute that your God exists. If it (I presume gods are sexless) died tomorrow, or moved to another universe or whatever, would we know? If so, then how would we know?

Presumably atheists would claim that nothing would change. After all, science has no need of gods, so planetary motion would continue, the sky would not fall in, the sun would rise each morning as it always did and so on. And an atheist presumably believes that our morality would not change either.

But what of those that do believe in a God. How would you know if your god died? Would you know at all? How would you know?

The question is absurd because it contradicts the essential attribute which makes up God: Eternality. God has existed eternally, which would indicate according to many that He is "timeless". So we should ask, if terminating is even a possibility for a beginningless entity, would our finite existence ever come to pass in the first place?

Hypothetically speaking though, had God suddenly died, then all other existences would cease to exist. This is because God's existence is necessary and self-sufficient, while everything apart from him is contingent/dependent upon Him.

Regarding morality, it's inaccurate to 'remove' God without removing His moral contribution to humanity. At this point, Theists and Atheists alike have absorbed religious morals and are conditioned by them as a species.
Hence, what we should really ponder over is how Humans would've evolved without the influence of "objective morals."

[JehovahsWitness]

It's a hypothetical question, a "what if", ....

So basically we are in a hypothetical universe unrelated to present reality and you are asking us to use our imaginations to suppose an impossible event and then once we have done that you are asking for empiracle proof that demonstrate in detail how the consquences of this imagined event can happen? Does that about sum up your position? If so, my response is a faith based on, (please note I just said a faith based response.... and it is as follows :

If it is a hypothetical "what if".. question, I would, say that that which hpothetically killed God would, I believe, hypothetically kill us too. Whatever that hypothetically was.

Okay, I think we're done now, my faith based response is there and I have nothing more to add. Please have an exceptionally good weekend, and enjoy the rest of your thread,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS

Who made God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p925192

Can God die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p951877

What would happen if God died?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 63#p951763

When did God create light ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p763415

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by showme]

I agree.


QUESTION : Can God die?

The bible is quite clear on this point, Moses on speaking about YHWH (Jehovah the God of the bible) wrote:

PSAMLS 90:2

“You have always been, and you will always be.� -The Holy Bible, New Century Version

So scriptually, God is eternal, infinite and is not subject to death (cessesion of existence)* - compare Jude 25

[*] NOTE: Since most of the world's religions view death as a mere transition to an alternative but continued conscious existence in a non material universe universe, as such most believers do not believe in death as in non-existence at all. The Jehovahs Winesses stand out as unique in that they would define death as the opposite of any life, ie total non-existence, exactly the same as before an individual was created/conceived.

FURTHER READING Did God have a beginning?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2010491

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE TRINITY

[ytrewq]

OK. One of the most common responses is that God cannot die (because the Bible said so), and therefore it makes no sense to consider what would happen if he did. Yes, I can understand that point of view, even if the question that was posed had nothing to do with God whether can actually die.

I thank those that were brave enough to give it a go.

[ytrewq]

Hypothetically speaking though, had God suddenly died, then all other existences would cease to exist. This is because God's existence is necessary and self-sufficient, while everything apart from him is contingent/dependent upon Him.

Thanks. That seems a common response from Christians, that without a God, nothing can exist. I personally find it impossible to reconcile that with scientific knowledge that unanimously finds that the Universe does in fact exist and runs just fine without any need for Gods. Science has no need for Gods. So I can't avoid the conclusion that either Christian religious belief is wrong, or else all modern scientific knowledge is wrong. Presumably you think that all modern scientific knowledge is wrong, and that the existence of a God is necessary for the Universe to exist and operate. Is that in fact your position, or am I missing something? I am genuinely puzzled, and if you are able to answer this question, I am happy to "leave it at that".

[Matthew S Islam]

I personally find it impossible to reconcile that with scientific knowledge that unanimously finds that the Universe does in fact exist and runs just fine without any need for Gods. Science has no need for Gods. So I can't avoid the conclusion that either Christian religious belief is wrong, or else all modern scientific knowledge is wrong.

What exactly do the Christians teach on this matter? I always thought they shared a similar view with Muslims: Accept God's Will/Decree over His creation, and interpret science and natural laws in light of God's Will/Power.

It's really important to understand what science is and then contextualize it based on its epistemological value. Science is certainly a blessed tool which has benefitted human civilization tremendously. However, it's method is limited to the areas it can address; for example, it cannot address theological or moral issues. Science is employed through empiricism, induction, and it assumes naturalism.
What tends to go over most people is that science requires the practitioner to presume a natural explanation for every matter. In other words, this source will never conclude that the creation of our Universe was a Supernatural/Divine act.

So in response to your statement "Scientific knowledge unanimously finds.."

1) Scientific knowledge has not reached a decisive model which explains the origins of our universe. The scientist admit that their theories contain inconsistencies and require revision as more data is accumulated.

2) Scientific knowledge will always offer a natural explanation by default. So there is no real significance with Theist being at odds with the scientific community on certain Supernatural issues.

3) Science will never reach a coherent theory which explain the origins of the cosmos. The only sensible answer to "why does something exist rather than nothing?" is that an Eternal Will preceded the object and chose to bring it into existence.

Presumably you think that all modern scientific knowledge is wrong, and that the existence of a God is necessary for the Universe to exist and operate. Is that in fact your position, or am I missing something? I am genuinely puzzled, and if you are able to answer this question, I am happy to "leave it at that".

I'm not 100% on what Christians believe regarding modern science; perhaps someone else can assist you on that. In Islam we recognize the value of beneficial knowledge. Science would certainly fall under that heading, however, we contextualize the authority of scientific opinion, especially when its theories conflict with Divine inspiration or Supernatural events. For example, Sunni Muslims reject the notion of humans evolving from chimps. We don't necessarily reject the concept of evolution, however, we firmly reject any theory which opposes our doctrine concerning Adam and Eve. In response to the scientific community's consensus on evolution, we say that the creation of Adam and Eve was a Supernatural event which falls outside the scope of science. God created Adam from Earthly properties, and He created him at his proper timing--consistent with the Earth's evolutionary progress.

Outside of the origins of the Universe and evolution, I don't think Islam has any significant issues with modern science.

And God knows best.

[amortalman]

Any "circle" you find on a computer screen would be nothing a series of square pixels.

Any circle you find on a computer screen would still be a circle in its totality regardless of its makeup.

[amortalman]

If God died tomorrow, would we know? How would we know?

If you are asking atheists this question you are actually asking "If the God you don't believe in died, would you know? How would you know?" So the question cannot apply to unbelievers.

If you are asking believers if they would know, and how they would know, you might as well be asking them if they should come upon a square circle would they know, and how would they know? Because for them the notion of God's death is as impossible as a square circle.

The question is what is known as a hypothetical.

And that statement is what is known as condescending.

I made it clear in the original post that atheists would need to assume for the purposes of the question that God really did exist. Likewise for Christians/Theists, where I am similarly asking them to consider a "what-if" question, and what I actually said was if God died, or moved off to another universe, or whatever. It does none of us any harm to consider "what if" questions, and sometimes we learn something by doing so.

I'm no hypocrite.

I'm happy to hear that.

I answered the question from an atheist viewpoint...

So did I. Well, I would describe myself as agnostic.

even though I don't believe for a microsecond that a God actually exists, so no reason why theists/Christians cannot answer the question from their viewpoint where they don't believe for a microsecond that their god would actually die. And to their credit, some theists (and atheists) have done their best to answer the question, and I thank and respect them for it.

I gave honest answers to your questions, as saw it. I said nothing in disrespect. Have a great day.

[ytrewq]

I personally find it impossible to reconcile that with scientific knowledge that unanimously finds that the Universe does in fact exist and runs just fine without any need for Gods. Science has no need for Gods. So I can't avoid the conclusion that either Christian religious belief is wrong, or else all modern scientific knowledge is wrong.

What exactly do the Christians teach on this matter? I always thought they shared a similar view with Muslims: Accept God's Will/Decree over His creation, and interpret science and natural laws in light of God's Will/Power.

It's really important to understand what science is and then contextualize it based on its epistemological value. Science is certainly a blessed tool which has benefitted human civilization tremendously. However, it's method is limited to the areas it can address; for example, it cannot address theological or moral issues. Science is employed through empiricism, induction, and it assumes naturalism.
What tends to go over most people is that science requires the practitioner to presume a natural explanation for every matter. In other words, this source will never conclude that the creation of our Universe was a Supernatural/Divine act.

So in response to your statement "Scientific knowledge unanimously finds.."

1) Scientific knowledge has not reached a decisive model which explains the origins of our universe. The scientist admit that their theories contain inconsistencies and require revision as more data is accumulated.

2) Scientific knowledge will always offer a natural explanation by default. So there is no real significance with Theist being at odds with the scientific community on certain Supernatural issues.

3) Science will never reach a coherent theory which explain the origins of the cosmos. The only sensible answer to "why does something exist rather than nothing?" is that an Eternal Will preceded the object and chose to bring it into existence.

Presumably you think that all modern scientific knowledge is wrong, and that the existence of a God is necessary for the Universe to exist and operate. Is that in fact your position, or am I missing something? I am genuinely puzzled, and if you are able to answer this question, I am happy to "leave it at that".

I'm not 100% on what Christians believe regarding modern science; perhaps someone else can assist you on that. In Islam we recognize the value of beneficial knowledge. Science would certainly fall under that heading, however, we contextualize the authority of scientific opinion, especially when its theories conflict with Divine inspiration or Supernatural events. For example, Sunni Muslims reject the notion of humans evolving from chimps. We don't necessarily reject the concept of evolution, however, we firmly reject any theory which opposes our doctrine concerning Adam and Eve. In response to the scientific community's consensus on evolution, we say that the creation of Adam and Eve was a Supernatural event which falls outside the scope of science. God created Adam from Earthly properties, and He created him at his proper timing--consistent with the Earth's evolutionary progress.

Outside of the origins of the Universe and evolution, I don't think Islam has any significant issues with modern science.

And God knows best.

What you are saying quite clearly, is that the standard religious take on science is as follows :-

Science is great and has taught us many things, but must be interpreted in the light of religious belief. Where there is a conflict between religious belief and scientific belief, it is the religious belief that is correct.

And so I remain as puzzled as ever. You are indeed saying that as far as you are concerned, modern scientific knowledge is simply wrong if it contradicts religious belief. To address some of your other points.

It is true that science has as yet not solved the origin of the universe, though it has learned infinitely more about it than religion has ever been able to tell us, by tracing the evolution of the universe back to the Big Bang. It is possible that science will never know what preceded the Big Bang, so to speak. OK. So what? There are actually many things that science does not as yet understand, but it absolutely does not follow that "therefore my God did it", which is essentially what you are saying. If you or anyone else believes that your God created the universe, then you need to define what your god is, and explain with evidence exactly how it created the universe, not to mention what created your God, and religion is unable to do that. To repeat, simply saying that "God did it" does not advance human knowledge one iota. As well could I say that my God fuzzelbus did it.

Science is certainly a blessed tool which has benefitted human civilization tremendously. However, it's method is limited to the areas it can address; for example, it cannot address theological or moral issues.

Science has never claimed to address moral issues, but frankly I have no idea what "theological issues" are. Is the science of planetary motion a theological issue? Is cosmology and the evolution of the universe a theological issue? Is biological evolution a theological issue? Well all of these are the business of science. Science has never claimed that the existence Gods is impossible, but is does claim is that on the basis of all scientific knowledge gained over hundreds of year, by millions of scientists meticulously performing experiments and making observations, that the universe runs itself just fine without intervention from or requirement of Gods. It is the business of Science to discover how the universe works, and it has done so and continues to do so with great success. Presumably your "theological issues" are some other sort of stuff, and by all means tell us about them.