What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[marco]

Then the simple answer would be to produce a verse from the Bible where an angel is called a soul.

An angel may well not be a soul. Is God a soul? In your extensive list you have mentioned a few abstract nouns, which tells us we need not restrict ourselves to the meaning "living body." I don't see why you want the actual word "spirit" to feature.


I think you have simply been led into a dogmatic approach by taking the early reference in Genesis as literal, rather than poetic. God made the clay into a living being. Do you honestly believe that God, the creator of the universe, is humbly working with clay? Surely if ever there was a case for conceding to metaphor, the account of the origin of the world is a case in point, there being no human observers.
God took the worthless and raised it up.

I have an open mind on whether we possess an immortal soul, a belief that has been with us for millennia but if you want to show the bible does not uphold this belief, you have to do better than visit poetry.

[William]

[@]

marco: Surely if ever there was a case for conceding to metaphor, the account of the origin of the world is a case in point, there being no human observers.
God took the worthless and raised it up.

William: More often than not, our human based judgments - such as;

marco: Do you honestly believe that God, the creator of the universe, is humbly working with clay?

William: Don't really convey the gist of the metaphor used to convey the concept.
We can not know that GOD sees anything he creates as being beneath him in terms of value based human judgement.
Even that GOD chose to breathe life into that effigy, is because it is something he can DO - therefore if he chose to do so, who are we to say, he was acting without dignity?

marco: I have an open mind on whether we possess an immortal soul, a belief that has been with us for millennia but if you want to show the bible does not uphold this belief, you have to do better than visit poetry.

William: Certainly the bible does uphold that notion, although we can also agree that it is very sparing in what knowledge about that, it has to divulge.
If one were to follow after the idea of "possessing an immortal soul" one finds a brick wall covering over that knowledge, if one relies only on the Bible for said knowledge. The knowledge is available elsewhere, to all with genuine interest...

[JehovahsWitness]

A living creature is a human or an animal, so nephesh can be used in this way.

So your saying the Hebrew word NEPHESH (translated as the English SOUL) refers to a living creature or a human or an animal? Is that what you are proposing? I ask because are not humans and animals physical? So if a NEPHESH is a human or an animal wouldn't that make a NEPHESH a physical living thing?





(You'll notice that the scriptures below are not just from the book of Genesis)

*** SOUL [nephesh/psūchê]***

The Hebrew word נֶ֫פֶש�, nephesh, although translated as "soul" in some older English Bibles, actually has a meaning closer to "living being". Nephesh was rendered in the Septuagint as ψυχή (psūchê), the Greek word for soul.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_in_the_Bible

SOULS CAN DIE

EZEKIEL 18:4

The soul who sins shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die . - King James Bible.

SOULS CAN BE DESTROYED

MATTHEW 10:28
"Rather, fear him who can destroy, both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom.- CJB

SOULS CAN BE STABBED (TO DEATH)

JOSHUA 11:11

They struck all the souls who were therein with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them; there was none left who breathed: and he burnt Hazor with fire. - WEB

SOULS CAN EAT (BLOOD)

LEVITICUS 17:10

"I will even set My face against that soul who eateth blood and will cut him off from among his people.

SOULS HAVE BLOOD

JEREMIAH 2:34

Also in thy skirts is found the blood of the souls of the innocent poor - ASV

ANIMALS ARE CALLED SOULS

GENESIS 1:24

And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, yea, work beasts, and reptiles, or creeping beasts, and unreasoning beasts of the earth, all after their kind; and it was done so - WYC

NUMBERS 31:28
And levy a tribute unto the LORD of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep - KJVA

SOUL Nephesh (The Hebrew equivalent of psykhḗ ) is used to refer to animals in twenty-two passages in the bible:

Genesis 1:20, 21,24, 2:19; 9:10,12; Leviticus 11:46. Leviticus 11:10; Ezekiel 47:9. Genesis 1:20, 30. Genesis 9:4; Deuteronomy 12:23 ; Proverbs 12:10. "beast", Leviticus 24:18, Job 41:21. "fish", Isaiah 19:10. Refering to both humans and animals : "creature". Genesis 9:15, 16. Leviticus 17:11, 14, Numbers 31:28

Source The Holy Bible, Hewlett, 1811








RELATED POSTS

What is a SOUL?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 894#965894
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 205#832205

Hebrews 10:39, : Can souls decay or be damaged or destroyed ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 501#971501

Is a SOUL and a(the) SPIRIT the same thing in the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 029#971029

Are GHOSTS real?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 992#798992

FURTHER READING

“Soul� and “Spirit�​—What Do These Terms Really Mean?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... t-meaning/

King Name Version Concordance : SOUL
http://www.thekingsbible.com/Search/SearchResults#

[JehovahsWitness]

God made clay into a nephesh and for some poetic reason called the clay Adam.

Emphasis MINE

What do you mean by "God made clay into a nephesh" .... isnt the clay the physical flesh and bone body? Doesnt Hebrew NEPHESH translate as SOUL?


Wouldn't your sentence "God made clay into a nephesh, equal: ... God made clay into a SOUL (ie a physical "living thing")?

A living creature is a human or an animal, so nephesh can be used in this way.

JW


BTW I would totally agree with you, God did make clay into a NEPHESH and he did indeed for poetic reason call the clay ADAM (Adam meaning "earthling man" ie man of the earth/ground)

[otseng]

In short via the correct definition of the word SOUL we arrive at a biblical understanding of the condition of the dead.

Why is your definition of a soul the "correct" one? On what basis do you claim it is the correct one?

So are you you proposing SOUL and SPIRIT are synonyms in scripture ie they describe exactly the same thing(s)?

I'm not saying soul and spirit are synonymns, but their definitions do overlap.

I do not believe soul is used exclusively in a material or immaterial sense. It depends on the context.

Are ANIMALS ever described as souls in the bible? If so, in what sense are they SOULS ? How does this shed light on the condition of the dead ie what happens to a SOUL when it's body decomposes and returns to dust?

If you believe soul is defined to only mean the material, then of course all passages that use soul would only refer to a physical body.

[Replying to post 344 by JehovahsWitness]

No one is disputing souls can refer to the physical body. But what is in dispute is if it only refers to the physical body or can it also refer to an immaterial body.

In the definitions I presented of psychē, the range of meaning can include something physical or something immaterial. These definitions are from BLB and Wiktionary, which are representative of the common understanding of psychē. If you believe psychē is only a material body, then the burden is on you to explain why commonly accepted definitions are not valid.

Some more verses that indicate some part of the person surviving after death:

[2Co 5:8 KJV] 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Luk 23:43 KJV] 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I think again you are bringing your confirmation bias to the text. The above verses confirm two things #1) that an individual can die. #2) That that same individual can subsequently be with Christ (who also at some point died). There is not indication how this will come about. ie whether that be from a biblical resurrection or from the individual essentially surviving his own death.

I don't see how you can say I have confirmation bias when I haven't even stated my position. I'm just pointing out verses that support a particular position (which is not necessarily the one I hold to).

But, since you mentioned it, why would you not have confirmation bias?

Regarding the thief on the cross, Jesus said "today". However, Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Was the thief in the tomb with Jesus on that day?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 365 by otseng]

I don't see how you can say I have confirmation bias when I haven't even stated my position. I'm just pointing out verses that support a particular position (which is not necessarily the one I hold to).

But, since you mentioned it, why would you not have confirmation bias?

Regarding the thief on the cross, Jesus said "today". However, Jesus was in the tomb for three days. Was the thief in the tomb with Jesus on that day?

How interesting!

To have gone this far without stating your position is a real challenge on a debate forum thread such as this.

As to your "thief" question, I see it as being both astute and original.

It is an obvious and telling question, yet I have never seen it asked by anyone, including me.

Amazing!

What more can I say, otseng, but

Grace and peace to you.

[otseng]

It would be heretical to propose new theology like annihilation and soul sleep. These teachings were not taught by Christ or His Church and therefore it would be wrong to believe them.

For a long time, I was unconsciously fearful of being labeled a heretic. I think most Christians have this fear as well. I believe this fear of being labeled a heretic has silenced too many and left parishioners to simply be bobbleheads.

Sometimes it was the heretic that was right, not the ones who were burning them at the stake. We should not demonize heretics and automatically discount a position simply because it's contrary to what "the Church" teaches.

What we should do is be willing to study the scriptures with an open mind. If scripture leads us to church doctrine, then great. But, if it does not support church doctrine, we should be willing to go where the evidence leads, not to where authority tells us.

About hell, as I've mentioned before, as Christians, it matters little if we believe it's eternal or temporary, being tortured or annihilated. Our view of hell has nothing to do with salvation. No one will be denied heaven because they held an erroneous view of hell. So, we should not label someone a heretic simply because they have an unorthodox view of hell.

[otseng]

BTW, I will be out of commission for awhile. I hope I won't have to read through 100 pages when I return. So, please do try to stay on topic.

[JehovahsWitness]

Some more verses that indicate some part of the person surviving after death:

[2Co 5:8 KJV] 8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

[Luk 23:43 KJV] 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I think again you are bringing your confirmation bias to the text. The above verses confirm two things #1) that an individual can die. #2) That that same individual can subsequently be with Christ (who also at some point died). There is not indication how this will come about. ie whether that be from a biblical resurrection or from the individual essentially surviving his own death.

I don't see how you can say I have confirmation bias when I haven't even stated my position. I'm just pointing out verses that support a particular position (which is not necessarily the one I hold to).

But the verses do nothing of the kind. Still, fair enough, perhaps you meant, here are some verses that some claim support a particular position. In that case my response would be ....

Anyone that proposes that the above verses support the notion of some part of the person surviving after death would presumably be doing so based on something other than the words in the text since the actual words in the text only indicate two things #1) that an individual can die. #2) That that same individual can subsequently be with Christ (who also at some point died).

There is not indication how this will come about. ie whether that be from a biblical resurrection , from the individual essentially surviving his own death. or some other method. These passages are silent on how someine comes to be with Christ and anyone (not you) that claimed that information is indicated in the verse is projecting.

To illustrate: Besty said she will meet Philip at a the party. Does the sentence indicate HOW this will come about? Will she take a taxi? Will her parent drop her off in their private jet? Will she bike it or will she be teletransported there by aliens?

If someone said : Ah you see! Besty will meet Philip at the party, this indicates she will arrive on a donkey. Would you say the person has really anaylized the words on the page as is or are the injecting their own ideas. Their ideas may be right, they may have knowledge of a donkey but they obviously didn't get that information from the text at hand.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

No one is disputing souls can refer to the physical body. ...

Well then they should because soul is not the physical body. It refers to a living breathing person (or animal) and figuratively to the life of that one.

But what is in dispute is if it only refers to the physical body ...

What do I have to do to get that point across, draw a picture? Oh yes .., I already did.

Body + spirit = SOUL
Clay + breath of life = SOUL
Flesh & blood + animating force = PERSON/Animal/SOUL


Blue + yellow = green. If you take away the blue do you have green? Where does the green go? heaven?!
If you take away spirit do you have SOUL? The soul goes where the green went when you removed the blue.

... can [NEPHESH] it also refer to an immaterial body.

NEPHESH is NEVER used in scripture to describe a immaterial body. It is sometimes used poetically to refer to "the life" of a physical being . If someone contends otherwise they have but to show NEPHESH thus used in the bible