Five Fundamentals of the (Christian) Faith

SallyF · Post by **SallyF** » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:07 pm

FIVE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH

There are five fundamentals of the faith which are essential for Christianity, and upon which we agree:
1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).
2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).
3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).
4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20). [1]

And those who disagree with any of the above doctrines are not Christians at all. Rather, they are the true heretics. http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/five_f ... _faith.htm

As - in my view - Progressive Christians toss more and more ballast out of the hot air balloon of their diminishing faith, more and more the feet of clay upon which the edifices of Christian faith were built are exposed.

Are Progressive Christians "true heretics".

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:50 am

SallyF wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
The author of Hebrews contradicts Jesus and many of the Prophets, as well as the Psalmist and author of Proverbs.

The author of Hebrews was just plain wrong.
So, are we dealing with the "Word of God" here in any way ?

Or are we dealing with a contradictory jumble of human propaganda and fraudulent pseudepigrapha perhaps ?

It looks like a fraudulent mess to me.

It's no wonder Atheists and Atheist Christians have discarded most or all of it.

If by "Atheist Christians" you mean non-Fundamentalist Christians in general, I have to take exception to the designation. And remember, anyone on this particular site who identifies as a Christian, IS a Christian, no matter how non-conventional their beliefs.

If you mean by "Atheist Christian" someone who likes Jesus advocacy for the downtrodden, and his promotion of the Golden Rule but who does not believe in God, I would agree with the designation.

Regarding your characterization of the Bible here, I think there's something to what you are saying, though I do not go anywhere near as far. To paraphrase Deist Thomas Paine, "the Bible has done nothing except to produce atheists and fanatics". A bit of hyperbole, but I think he's onto something there.

I have struggled with whether the Bible is a credit to God, or does Him a disservice. I think mostly]/i] the former. NF Believers focus on the good, the "diamonds". Detractors, the absurd and atrocious contained within it's pages. The dung. Fundamentalists claim to accept the whole of the 66 books as the actual Word of God". But when is the last time you heard a sermon preached on the wonders of keeping slaves and beating them half-to-death? (That's in there too, Exodus 21.20-21). Even Fundamentalists, (mostly) focus on the "diamonds" and not the "dung".

SallyF · Post by **SallyF** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:15 pm

Elijah John wrote:
If by "Atheist Christians" you mean non-Fundamentalist Christians in general, I have to take exception to the designation.

Member BJS informed us that certain Christians are Atheists - and met no opposition.

And I posted this earlier:

And this

https://owlcation.com/misc/Atheists-in- ... the-Clergy

You will need to take exception with your fellow "Christians" and not this New Atheist.

Nonetheless, in my view, certain folks who cover themselves with the glittering diamonds of a very diluted Christianity, have exposed the fundamental feet of clay upon which the whole fraudulent edifice was built.

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:44 pm

Virgin Birh

Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:06 pm

Virgin Birth?
Jesus could have been born of a virgin on Mars what difference does it make? It may make him unique just as Neil Armstrong was unique in 1969 when he was the first man to step foot on the moon. It doesn't make him the messiah.
Where on Earth is it prophecied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. The writer of Mathew claims it was prophecies. Where?

Ten Commandments?
When the new testament lists the commandments they don't mention the first ones. And if I were a Christian Is be embarrassed holding up the ten commandments. Why? Because they don't keep the Sabbath. Not the Sabbath God commanded we remember. Christians say the holy day is Sunday. No it isn't. It's Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Even the Christian testament acknowledges that.

Christians honor Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire by calling Sunday holy. He was raised pagan and he worshipped the 'sun' God. SUNday was their holy day. So he made it law that Sunday be holy throughout the empire. And it sticks til this day. So Christian's aren't honiring God when they wander off the church on Sunday.

How about the commandment of honoring your parents? Jesus was nothing but rude to his mother.

SallyF · Post by **SallyF** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:44 pm

Avoice wrote: Virgin Birth?
Jesus could have been born of a virgin on Mars what difference does it make? It may make him unique just as Neil Armstrong was unique in 1969 when he was the first man to step foot on the moon. It doesn't make him the messiah.
Where on Earth is it prophecied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. The writer of Mathew claims it was prophecies. Where?

Ten Commandments?
When the new testament lists the commandments they don't mention the first ones. And if I were a Christian Is be embarrassed holding up the ten commandments. Why? Because they don't keep the Sabbath. Not the Sabbath God commanded we remember. Christians say the holy day is Sunday. No it isn't. It's Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Even the Christian testament acknowledges that.

Christians honor Emperor Constantine of the Roman Empire by calling Sunday holy. He was raised pagan and he worshipped the 'sun' God. SUNday was their holy day. So he made it law that Sunday be holy throughout the empire. And it sticks til this day. So Christian's aren't honiring God when they wander off the church on Sunday.

How about the commandment of honoring your parents? Jesus was nothing but rude to his mother.

Jews and Christians - and every other faith community I know of - pick and choose the "commandments" they want to follow, and find "scriptures" to give them the outs they are looking for.

And as far as the "Sabbath" beginning at Friday sundown, how do we know our Friday is the real Friday ?

Has someone been counting the days since the first biblical creation myth ?

Should the Sabbath really begin on Tuesday afternoon ?

Is Yahweh fuming with wrath again and contemplating another dome-filling Flood ?

Does it really matter which day of the week is the "Sabbath".

The Christian sect, the Seventh Day Adventists, think it does, and cause a certain amount of disruption to industry. But then again, humans often LOVE to be distinguished by difference and martyrdom.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:47 pm

Avoice wrote:
Where on Earth is it prophecied that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. The writer of Mathew claims it was prophecies. Where?

QUESTION DID THE WRITER OF MATTHEW CLAIM THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES PREDICTED THE MESSIAH WOULD BE BORN OF A VIRGIN?

ANSWER No, Mattew didn't say the scriptures has prophecies that the Messiah would be born of a virgin, he said that what was prophecied (namely that a young girl OR maiden/a virgin) would give birth, turned out to be was fulfilled in the latter.

ISAIAH 7:14

Therefore, Jehovah himself will give you a sign: Look! The young woman* will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel. - NWT

* Or MAIDEN

The writer of Matthew quotes the Hebrew Scriptures at Isaiah 7:14. In Hebrew the word used is almah, a broader term that may mean virgin (maiden) or simply a young woman. Matthew quotes from the Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah 7:14, which uses parthenos, which refers to one who has never engaged in sexual intercourse.

MATTHEW 1:22-23

All of this actually came about to fulfill what was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: 23 Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will name him Im-manu-el,+ which means, when translated, With Us Is God. - NWT

In short, the writer is implying that while the Hebrew bible suggested that the promised Messiah would be born of a young woman that could be a virgin, it turned out that she was indeed a literal virgin.

To illustrate: Imagine someone predicted a girl will marry "a manuel worker". "Manual worker" is a broad term that would cover anyone that made his living working with his hands. Now if it turned out she married a carpenter, did the prediction come true? Yes, a carpenter is a type of manual worker. Can we say that the prediction was that she would marry a carpenter? No, not specifically. Would it be accurate to say, that the prediction that she would mardy a manual worker came true in her marriage to ma carpenter? Yes!

Granted "manual worker" and "carpenter" are two different words but if there was one word that covered both the specific and the general (as is the case with the Hebrew "almah") then one could legitimately point out (as Mattew 1:23 does) that the general term came to be fulfilled by this specific type of person.

CONCLUSION Matthew was not neither mistranslating (he didn't translate the Septugint from which he quotes) nor suggesting the Hebrew bible specifically insisted that the Messiah be born of a virgin, he is simply reporting how things turned out.

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Avoice · Post by **Avoice** » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:49 pm

[Replying to post 35 by JehovahsWitness]

Yeah, it's another misquote of the Hebrew scriptures. You seem to think that the only thing debatable is the word virgin.

The "sign" given by Isaiah isn't the child at all. The kid is merely being used as a calendar. Chapter 7 of Isaiah is about what?
It's about king Ahaz who worries about the pending war between the southern kingdom and the northern kingdom that joined forces with Assyria. And the sign was given to ahaz to see in HIS lifetime. And when was he to see this sign? (Here is where the kids comes in) by the tine the child reaches a certain age Ahazs enemies will no longer be a threat.

"For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings."

THE CHILD IN ISAIAH IS NOT ABOUT A FUTURE BIRTH
It does not say a young woman WILL conceive.
It says the young woman IS WITH child. She was already pregnant when Isaiah have the sign to King Ahaz

The first words of chapter 7 are perfectly clear :
"And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz..."

It's saying everything you are about to read happened already.

The child in 7:14 is not about Jesus. And it's not about the messiah.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:22 am

[Replying to post 32 by SallyF]

Do you consider those of us who are trying to understand and recover Jesus original* message "Christian Atheists"?

(* before Paul and company contaminated it with Greco-Roman paganism)

Jesus was no atheist.

Just because a person does not believe that Jesus was not God, does not make them atheists. There's still the Father. Surely you are familiar with the Shema of Judaism, which Jesus also affirmend.

Your position and your comments are dismissive, simplistic and offensive.

Post by **Tcg** » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:31 pm

Elijah John wrote:
There's still the Father.

Correction: There's still belief in the Father amongst some Christians. The belief some have is evidence not of a God, but that some humans believe in God. That's a huge difference.

Tcg

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:31 pm

[Replying to post 36 by Avoice]

DOUBLE/MULTI REFERENCE PROPHECY

One of the reasons many fail to fully grasp the significance of biblical prophecy is they fail to understand the part double or even multi-reference prophecy plays in scripture. Simply put, double reference prophecy is a prophecy that is fulfilled on more than one occasion in more than the initial application. It is a major feature in biblical hermeneutics and often the key to understanding Christ's role in bible prophecy.

Is there a biblical basis for exponents of double reference?

Yes, Jesus himself. During his famous reading in the synagogue at Nazareth, Jesus quoted from the book of Isaiah. In Chapter 61 of Isaiah we read that God's spirit anointed His "servant" to proclaim good news of liberation and rebuilding. That servant would arguably be Isaiah himself proclaiming that the soon to be devasted land of Israel at the hands of both the Assyrians and later the Babylonians, would eventually be rebuilt (compare Isaiah 6:8; 61:4). This prophecy was fulfilled in 539 BCE when the captive Jews were freed by Cyrus the Great and allowed to return home.

Yet Jesus implied that there would be a second fulfilment when he read the same passage and applied it to his own first century people, placing himself as God's servant and another message of "good news" and "liberation" stating, Today this scripture that you just heard is fulfilled.

Obviously Jesus was not implying that the Jewish liberation was not a historical fact or that Isaiah wasn't a great prophet chosen by God to announce this, rather the implication is clear that the major fulfilment lay with him (Jesus) and had to do with his message of liberation from sin and death.

Do the Hebrew Scriptures indicate when a "double fulfilment" should be expected?

Usually yes. For the astute biblical scholar the indication usually can be seen when all the features of a given composite prophecy are not seen in the initial fulfilment. For example in Isaiah 61:6 it says " you will be called the priests of Jehovah" indicating this message would be connected with a class of Priests. Verse 8 of the same chapter references an "everlasting covenant" inconsistent with the Mosaic covenant in line according to Jeremiah to be replaced.

The above indicator can also be seen in Jesus own prophecy regarding the destruction of Jerusalem where he interleaved feature that applied to the first century with those that did not indicating that many of the features would have a minor and a greater fulfillent (see Mat 34, Luke 21, Mark 13).

Letting the bible interpret the bible

Sometimes however it was the first century bible writers such as the gospel writers and the Apostles, writjng under divine inspiration, who to draw attention to greater fulfilment . The writer of Matthew for example famously references many of Isaiahs prophecies to the person of Christ (Matthew 1:22"23; Isaiah 7:14) and Paul in explaining the significance of features of Jewish history and temple worship points out the prophetic eaning of many "Old Testament" prophecies.

CONCLUSION Like the closely related subject of types and antitypes, a proper understanding of bible prophecy involves accepting that certain features of the Hebrew bible would find their fulfilment both at a time chronologically close to the time of writing and yet ALSO have have a major fulfilment both in the Christian era and/or for some during our own 20th and 21st centuries.

JW

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