The 144,000 in JW theology

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The 144,000 in JW theology

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Post by Wootah »

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #491

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:10 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:33 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:17 am
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:14 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:58 am
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:38 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Yet that is not what I see you doing. I see a bunch of judging based on your dogma and wanting others to trust you on what is right and wrong.
I do not ask anyone to trust me, I ask only that they doubt organizations and the "statement of beliefs" and their rules and regulations and their self serving "we are the ones" attitude.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:38 am Most JWs want to live on Earth forever on a paradise. Yet you say this is wrong even though the Bible says that the earth will endure forever with righteous people on it. The Bible gives a limited number of those that will be Jesus as rulers in Heaven. But you define that as wrong too. While you say you don't rely on others for what is right and wrong you sure do want others to depend on you.

For what I read in your replies to me and others, your dogma takes center stage. Which is in reality just an opinion.
What dogma? that the word of god is my statement of beliefs? that I have no need for human authorities? that I do not stoop to made up rules? my refusal to accept that I need intermediaries? that I need "elders" to explain the truth? that I cannot rely on God's word but must rely on other people?

If that's my dogma then so be it.
Yes, that is your dogma. Your rules you stated above are not scriptural, as you gave only your words but nothing from the Word of God.
So you think the word of God is not sufficient? we do need some additional help? some clarification? a custom translation of the Bible perhaps?
There is the problem. You're asking what I think is sufficient.
Here is what the Bible says what Jesus sent and what he thinks is sufficient for his disciples.
"And he [Jesus] gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ." - Eph 4:11-13

If people just needed the scriptures why did Jesus send all these types of people, namely shepherds and teachers to build up the 'body of the Christ'? To shepherd who and teach what? What does it mean to 'build up the body of the Christ'?
None of that speaks of a current centralized authority or of job titles or a perpetual hierarchical clergy.
So what was good for them back then is not good for us today?
Not sure what you're asking, I said "None of that speaks of a current centralized authority or of job titles or a perpetual hierarchical clergy." which is true.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm "But after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and Barʹna·bas with them, it was arranged for Paul, Barʹna·bas, and some of the others to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue." Acts 15:2
Sounds like Paul and Barnabus were going to centralized authority to to get something clarified. What should have Paul done?
That quoted scripture you'll notice does not say (as you seem to be claiming) they went to consult some established central "authority", meeting with others, garnering their opinions, is not the same thing as giving them authority over you, so it does not "sound" like that at all, not to me anyway.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm In the Bible God's people have always had centralized authority. Going all the way back Enoch, Noah and Moses. After that there was the levitical priesthood.

So you're not going to win the argument that there shouldn't be a centralized authority on the Earth using the Bible. The only argument left is which one is actually working for Jehovah God and his Son Jesus.
Who spoke of "winning" anything? I certainly doubt I'd alter your view anyway, so that's not my expectation or goal.

The point I've been trying to make (perhaps not as well as I could) is that the JWs and many many other "sects" all impose burdens on their members, burdens that have zero to do with Christ and eternal life and the Gospel.

They induce a fear often subliminal fear, of getting a talking to, a telling off or worse, if they do not adhere to rules and regulations that are sometimes quite bizarre, like for example the silliness about blood transfusions, as if God actually cares more about the physical than the spiritual.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm
It does agree with Luke
Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’
Which is precisely what happened.

This is referring to the events that immediately followed the resurrection, it does not institute some continuous process that's ongoing today.
Says who?

This is where you're going to have to pick between your dogma and doctrine or choose a Bible scripture to back yourself up. Where in the Bible does it say for Christ's followers to end organizing themselves?
Are there apostles in the JW today? are there prophets in the JW today? Christ said he would send such people and he did, a long time ago, we know this was a past event because there are no fleshly apostles or fleshly prophets today only spiritual apostles and prophets - the Bible.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm Because what I read is that Jesus said, “where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.” (Matt. 18:20)

Hebrews 10:25 says not to forsake, "our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near."

1 Corinthians 14:33 says, "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people."

Do you have scriptures that can undo all of these?
None of those scripture refer to establishing a person as an apostle or prophet or a person being granted authority over everyone else.

Not only that the JWs do not rely on the drawing of straws even when making leadership decisions yet that is the example given to us in Acts!
When one has eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #492

Post by 2timothy316 »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:07 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:10 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:33 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:17 am
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:14 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:58 am
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:38 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 8:49 am I do speak with people and I listen to their views and I sometimes ask their opinions but I do not rely on others to define what is right and wrong, what is legal and illegal, I must and do face those decisions myself and the Bible is my reference not humans.
Yet that is not what I see you doing. I see a bunch of judging based on your dogma and wanting others to trust you on what is right and wrong.
I do not ask anyone to trust me, I ask only that they doubt organizations and the "statement of beliefs" and their rules and regulations and their self serving "we are the ones" attitude.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:38 am Most JWs want to live on Earth forever on a paradise. Yet you say this is wrong even though the Bible says that the earth will endure forever with righteous people on it. The Bible gives a limited number of those that will be Jesus as rulers in Heaven. But you define that as wrong too. While you say you don't rely on others for what is right and wrong you sure do want others to depend on you.

For what I read in your replies to me and others, your dogma takes center stage. Which is in reality just an opinion.
What dogma? that the word of god is my statement of beliefs? that I have no need for human authorities? that I do not stoop to made up rules? my refusal to accept that I need intermediaries? that I need "elders" to explain the truth? that I cannot rely on God's word but must rely on other people?

If that's my dogma then so be it.
Yes, that is your dogma. Your rules you stated above are not scriptural, as you gave only your words but nothing from the Word of God.
So you think the word of God is not sufficient? we do need some additional help? some clarification? a custom translation of the Bible perhaps?
There is the problem. You're asking what I think is sufficient.
Here is what the Bible says what Jesus sent and what he thinks is sufficient for his disciples.
"And he [Jesus] gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, to build up the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness of the faith and of the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to being a full-grown man, attaining the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ." - Eph 4:11-13

If people just needed the scriptures why did Jesus send all these types of people, namely shepherds and teachers to build up the 'body of the Christ'? To shepherd who and teach what? What does it mean to 'build up the body of the Christ'?
None of that speaks of a current centralized authority or of job titles or a perpetual hierarchical clergy.
So what was good for them back then is not good for us today?
Not sure what you're asking, I said "None of that speaks of a current centralized authority or of job titles or a perpetual hierarchical clergy." which is true.
It doesn't speak that there shouldn't be a current centralized authority either, which is also true.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm "But after quite a bit of dissension and disputing by Paul and Barʹna·bas with them, it was arranged for Paul, Barʹna·bas, and some of the others to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem regarding this issue." Acts 15:2
Sounds like Paul and Barnabus were going to centralized authority to to get something clarified. What should have Paul done?
That quoted scripture you'll notice does not say (as you seem to be claiming) they went to consult some established central "authority", meeting with others, garnering their opinions, is not the same thing as giving them authority over you, so it does not "sound" like that at all, not to me anyway.
Its not about 'what is sounds like'. It about what is recorded. There was a dispute and they went to the elders in Jerusalem regarding the issue. They didn't go there to have tea and cake. They went there to get a decision if circumcision was required to be saved. They were gong to Jerusalem to get an answer. Something I'm guessing you would not have done because that would require you to ask someone for an answer to what a person should do.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm In the Bible God's people have always had centralized authority. Going all the way back Enoch, Noah and Moses. After that there was the levitical priesthood.

So you're not going to win the argument that there shouldn't be a centralized authority on the Earth using the Bible. The only argument left is which one is actually working for Jehovah God and his Son Jesus.
Who spoke of "winning" anything? I certainly doubt I'd alter your view anyway, so that's not my expectation or goal.
That is not how debate works. Debates are not won if a person's views have been changed.
The point I've been trying to make (perhaps not as well as I could) is that the JWs and many many other "sects" all impose burdens on their members, burdens that have zero to do with Christ and eternal life and the Gospel.
The burden is from your point of view though. You think I'm burdened, I can assure you that I am not burdened in any way. My burdens come when I am not following the Bible and the direction of the FDS. Been there and done that, not worth it.
They induce a fear often subliminal fear, of getting a talking to, a telling off or worse, if they do not adhere to rules and regulations that are sometimes quite bizarre, like for example the silliness about blood transfusions, as if God actually cares more about the physical than the spiritual.
Again, this is your point of view. Which was probably given to you from the view point of people that hate JWs. What you see as just taking fruit from a tree I see as a sin against Jehovah not the religion. You see the surface but don't know the reasoning behind it and then make a judgement call on us.
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm
It does agree with Luke
Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’
Which is precisely what happened.

This is referring to the events that immediately followed the resurrection, it does not institute some continuous process that's ongoing today.
Says who?

This is where you're going to have to pick between your dogma and doctrine or choose a Bible scripture to back yourself up. Where in the Bible does it say for Christ's followers to end organizing themselves?
Are there apostles in the JW today? are there prophets in the JW today? Christ said he would send such people and he did, a long time ago, we know this was a past event because there are no fleshly apostles or fleshly prophets today only spiritual apostles and prophets - the Bible.
No apostles and no prophets. All of the gifts of prophecy stopped long ago and 1 Cor 13:8 says those things would pass away that only love would remain for the Christian congregations and that it would be it's identifying mark for all time. "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” (John 13:34, 35)
2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:18 pm Because what I read is that Jesus said, “where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.” (Matt. 18:20)

Hebrews 10:25 says not to forsake, "our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near."

1 Corinthians 14:33 says, "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people."

Do you have scriptures that can undo all of these?
None of those scripture refer to establishing a person as an apostle or prophet or a person being granted authority over everyone else.

Not only that the JWs do not rely on the drawing of straws even when making leadership decisions yet that is the example given to us in Acts!
I would think that the drawing of straws would be the least of your worries as you don't think anyone should be making decisions in taking the lead at all. But at least you have shown that you know that is how it was during the 1st century. Yet you think everyone should not follow the pattern of the 1st century though there is nothing in the Bible that says would shouldn't but many that say we should.

If you were told by Moses to pick up your stuff and follow him out of Egypt, would you not follow him because you'd be with a group following the instructions of a man?
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #493

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:38 pm
Well requiring "members" to agree to a written set of rules is one of the traits of what I loosely refer to as "organized religious institutions" along obligations and duties.

Conforming to beliefs, rules, obligations, duties and demonstrating that through actions is a reasonably considered evidence of a religion. Whether that religion is "organized" would be evident by whether or not those that followed adheres to it were organised into some fixed structural arrangement. The above I do not content.
I am challenging your premise that in the absence of a written list, all the above is rendered null and void and cannot be classified as a religion (organised)



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Re: The 144,000 in JW theology

Post #494

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:20 pm
If the Bible is the source then yes, what chapter and verse do you use to establish the list of bullet points.
Scriptures added in blue (see edit) LINK here:
viewtopic.php?p=1062104#p1062104



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(And yes, only the bible. YOU only need the bible nothing from anyone else, so why should I need to present anything but the bible?)
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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #495

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:21 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Fri Dec 31, 2021 10:54 am ... tell me who was the "another" king of Daniel 7:25, and how long was the time, times and half a time before "his dominion was taken away", and the "everlasting kingdom" was set up? And what does that "dominion" represent?


The visions of Daniel CHAPTER 7 have already been fulfilled. Daniels beast dreams present the succession of secular rulerships from his day in the 5th century BCE up to the establishment of the Kingdom in 1914. (The "times" mention have no direct relation to those of "the gentile times")

The kingdom whose rise to prominence runs right up to the setting up of the "everlasting [Messianic] kingdom", is the British empire.

Image

The establishment of the Messianic kingdom in 1914 "took away" his right to world "domination" marking it (and all other rulerships) for destruction at Harmageddon (see Dan 7:26).

As a result of their "Great War" partnership , Britain and America would eventually form a anglo-american world power. It was this political enemy "kingdom" would persecute God's people during and after World War I.

Image

Who are the "two witneses" of Revelation 11:3?
viewtopic.php?p=1021948#p1021948

What do the feet in Nebuchadnezzars dream symbolize?
viewtopic.php?p=1021364#p1021364


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DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION
*The Return of Christ
The people who persecuted "God's people", as in "wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law (Daniel 7:25) was the Roman emperor Constantine and he does this through the Roman church he established for time, times and half a time, until "all the sovereignty.... of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints (Daniel 7:27). That has not happened, and your 1914 JW kingdom does not exist, yet it was not until the late 40s that the persecutors of God' people, the Jews, were crushed by Britain and the U.S. with participation of the remnant of the Eastern Roman empire, the USSR. The US didn't even enter into the first world war until 1917, 3 years after your supposed JW kingdom event. Your narrative does not line up with the prophets or the Law, or current events.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #496

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #495]
I would recommend you do some more research.....the links that JehovahsWitness provides are excellent. For the truth of the matter, the website www.jw.org is limitless in value.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #497

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:42 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #495]
I would recommend you do some more research.....the links that JehovahsWitness provides are excellent. For the truth of the matter, the website www.jw.org is limitless in value.
On the other hand, actually reading the prophets and the message of Yeshua would seem to be the better course. A dabble into history and current events wouldn't be problematic either. While the JWs put out nice graphics, their 1914 conclusions seem to be out of sync.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #498

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:42 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #495]
I would recommend you do some more research.....the links that JehovahsWitness provides are excellent. For the truth of the matter, the website www.jw.org is limitless in value.
On the other hand, actually reading the prophets and the message of Yeshua would seem to be the better course. A dabble into history and current events wouldn't be problematic either. While the JWs put out nice graphics, their 1914 conclusions seem to be out of sync.
Not at all. Why don't you give JWs a chance to show you how we arrived at 1914 as the time when the "gentile times" ended and the representative of Jehovah would take up his assignment as King?

BTW, the website refers people to the prophets and the message of Yeshua.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #499

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:00 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:42 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #495]
I would recommend you do some more research.....the links that JehovahsWitness provides are excellent. For the truth of the matter, the website www.jw.org is limitless in value.
On the other hand, actually reading the prophets and the message of Yeshua would seem to be the better course. A dabble into history and current events wouldn't be problematic either. While the JWs put out nice graphics, their 1914 conclusions seem to be out of sync.
Not at all. Why don't you give JWs a chance to show you how we arrived at 1914 as the time when the "gentile times" ended and the representative of Jehovah would take up his assignment as King?

BTW, the website refers people to the prophets and the message of Yeshua.
How about you just explain your position which does not align with the message of Yeshua or the prophets. The power of the nations/Gentiles remains today. The supposed power of the JWs seems to be diminishing in terms of retention, which is at 37%. Those with internal knowledge of the religion seem to be leaving it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... %20million.
There are also problems with doctrines, in that Abraham didn't come back in 1925 and set up the kingdom. According to the prophets, one false prophecy and one is done.

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Re: The 144,000 in JW theologyu

Post #500

Post by onewithhim »

2ndpillar2 wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:49 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:00 pm
2ndpillar2 wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:55 pm
onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:42 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #495]
I would recommend you do some more research.....the links that JehovahsWitness provides are excellent. For the truth of the matter, the website www.jw.org is limitless in value.
On the other hand, actually reading the prophets and the message of Yeshua would seem to be the better course. A dabble into history and current events wouldn't be problematic either. While the JWs put out nice graphics, their 1914 conclusions seem to be out of sync.
Not at all. Why don't you give JWs a chance to show you how we arrived at 1914 as the time when the "gentile times" ended and the representative of Jehovah would take up his assignment as King?

BTW, the website refers people to the prophets and the message of Yeshua.
How about you just explain your position which does not align with the message of Yeshua or the prophets. The power of the nations/Gentiles remains today. The supposed power of the JWs seems to be diminishing in terms of retention, which is at 37%. Those with internal knowledge of the religion seem to be leaving it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... %20million.
There are also problems with doctrines, in that Abraham didn't come back in 1925 and set up the kingdom. According to the prophets, one false prophecy and one is done.
You don't know that our 1914 graphics are out of sync. If you gave a chance to really finding out from us how we arrive at 1914 you wouldn't be so sure of yourself. Our position can be easily explained, though extensively. Why don't YOU explain why you don't think our position does not align with Yeshua's message, or the prophets?

The power of the Gentiles has been altered because 1914 was when God's non-interference with what the nations were doing was over. From then on He has been very much involved with what has been going on here, as far as the nations are concerned, as well as Jesus' getting his disciples ready to face Armageddon, and after the preaching work is done. Before 1914 the nations were doing what they wanted without Jehovah being involved at all. Now they are doing their thing but not without Jehovah's maneuvering certain things. Do you get it? Prior to 1914 -> non-interference from Jehovah and His representative, the Messiah. After 1914 -> interference from Jehovah's representative, now on the throne of David.

JWs aren't looking for power, unlike other religions. Our retention may be 37% (which I don't know if that's true), but we have a slow, steady growth, so the baptisms must be outnumbering those that leave. Many with internal knowledge are remaining with Jehovah's organization.

Abraham's not coming back in 1925 was not a "doctrine." It was a well-intentioned wish of Brother Rutherford. No harm, no foul. It certainly wasn't a "prophecy!" A prophecy is new information directly from God. Rutherford nor anyone else ever said that he was getting word straight from God. All he was going by was what was already in the Scriptures and giving an educated GUESS as to when Abraham would come back. Your accusation falls flat.

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