Regarding the end of days.

[Elijah John]

Consider this summary of Albert Schweitzer's position from Wikipedia regarding the end of days:

The concept that Christianity started as a Jewish apocalyptic movement is evidenced by the teachings of the Historical Jesus concerning the end of days. Not only did he preach he would rise from the grave, but that he would also ascend to the Heaven and one day return to judge and rule over the world, saying that no one, including himself, knew the exact time of his return, but it would be before the end of his generation. Schweitzer verified the many New Testament references clearly explaining that 1st-century Christians believed in the imminent fulfillment of the promise of the World's ending, within the lifetime of Jesus's original followers.[37] He noted that in the gospel of Mark, Jesus speaks of a "tribulation", with his coming in the clouds with great power and glory" (St Mark), and states when it will happen: "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (St Matthew, 24:34) (or, "have taken place" (Luke 21:32))
In The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Schweitzer observes the Bible contradicting the possibility of important events that never took place and never can take place as they are described; Jesus specifically states that we are to "not seal up the words of the prophecy" and promises that some of his listeners as well as the high priest at his trial would be alive to see him return to the Earth. "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near" (Revelation 1:3). Saint Paul spoke of the "last times": "Brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none" (1 Corinthians 7:29); "God hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:2); "There be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28) (or, "until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power" (Mark 9:1); or, "till they see the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:27).)
Schweitzer continues writing in The Quest of the Historical Jesus that it is totally unreasonable to think that "coming quickly", "near", and "soon" could mean hundreds of years, much less, thousands of years in the future. "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Revelation 1:3) "And he said to me, 'These words are faithful and true'; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place." "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near" (Revelation 22:6, 7, 10, 12). "All these things shall come upon this generation" (Matthew 23:36). Schweitzer concludes that the 1st-century theology, originating in the lifetimes of those who first followed Jesus, is totally incompatible with modern Christian belief.
In The Quest of the Historical Jesus, Schweitzer notes the passage "Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near." (Revelation 1:3) Similarly in St Peter: "Christ .. Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (1 Peter 1:20), and "But the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). "Surely I come quickly" (Revelation 22:20). Schweitzer felt that St. Paul clearly believed in the immediacy of the Second Coming of Jesus, in stark contrast to modern organized Christianity.

For debate,

-how well does Schweitzer make the case that Jesus and the New Testament writers believed his "2nd coming" would occur in the lifetimes of Jesus' own apostles, and the New Testament writers themselves?

-Is this a good case that Jesus and/or the New Testament writers were wrong in this regard?

-What are the ramifications of them being so clearly mistaken?

-If Jesus and/or the NT writers were not mistaken, how do you explain away the many verses cited as evidence?

In light of the evidence given in this article, what happens to the doctrine of Bible perfection? Or the doctrine of the Divinity of Jesus?

[DPMartin]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

in respect to when and how the Lord says this:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


and that is what all else on the matter of when and how is based on.


if you want to know more search bible text for "day of the Lord".

[William]

[Replying to post 9 by PinSeeker]

A cut and paste from the other thread on this same subject...

It is best to provide a link so that the reader can follow it.

Cheers

W

[JehovahsWitness]

-If Jesus and/or the NT writers were not mistaken, how do you explain away the many verses cited as evidence?

This is a loaded question: to "explain away" the verses implies that any arguments are in fact attempts to disregard the verses, move them "away" so that, once those verses are dismissed another conclusion can be presented. The question is phrased in such a way that the conclusions of the honorable Mr Schweitzer are taken to be accurate and any and all counterarguments cannot be viable alternative interpretations but attempts to disregard the verses themselves.

A unbiased question would, in my personal opinion be:

"How do you explain [strike]away[/strike] the verses presented as evidence in the above extract"

This would not force anyone answering to attempt to correct a wrong by admitting to another wrong (loaded question).

My answer to the question as is, is that the verses don't need to be "explained away" they simply need to be explained.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

QUESTION How can the verses in the above extract be explained?


I explained these Scriptures in my earlier post on this topic. I will repost the links in case you missed them:

Mark 13:19 "great tribulation"
Matthew, 24:34 "this generation"
Luke 21:32 "this generation"

What is the generation Jesus said would see the end of the present system of things?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 061#775061

Why did Jesus refer to a generation not "passing away" if he was referring to a single event?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 219#752219

Matthew 16:28 "some standing here"
Mark 9:1 "some of thoose standing here"
Luke 9:27 "some of those standing here"

Did Jesus indicate that his first century disciples would see him returned in Kingdom power?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 172#752172

Did not Jesus say (in Matthew 16 verse 27) that he would "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 624#836624

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #13 by JehovahsWitness above...

QUESTION Are the references to "the end" as found in the Christian scriptures all referring to the end of the entire world system and the return of Christ?

Matthew 23:36 (Temple woes) "all these things will come upon this generation"

No. As has been explained above, while Jesus did address events that would mark the end of the entire world system and his own return in kingdom power to judge the inhabitants of the earth, he (Jesus) also addressed issues related to those alive during the first century. Condemning the religious leader of his day and referring to that particular first century generation, Jesus predicted the end of the Jewish religious system which would climax in the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (see Mat 23:35-38)

1 Corinthians 7:29 "The time left is reduced"
Hebrews 1:2 "The end of these days"
1 Peter 1:20 [Christ] made manifest "at the end of times"
1 Peter 4:7 "The end of all things"

QUESTION: What "end" were the Christian writers speaking about in the above scriptures?

• As has been explained above the first century Christian writers were aware of Jesus warnings about the end of the Jewish system of things and it was to this "end" that they were referring to above, NOT to the end of the world system and the return of Christ to Judge all humanity.

[JehovahsWitness]

Continued from post #14 by JehovahsWitness

QUESTION: How should we understand references to Christ's return being "near" or "coming quickly" as found in the book of Revelation?

Revelation 1:3, 10 "The appointed time is near"
Revelation 22:7, 12, 20 "I am coming quickly"
Revelation 22:6 "shortly take place"

The book of Revelation is presented in a series of visions that the writer claimed to have had. Interestingly the writer claimed to be relaying messages from God, transmitted to him through Jesus. Thus we can reasonably presume that the events would be "near" or "coming quickly", not necessarily from a human perspective but from the point f view of the originator of the statements (ie God). Indeed the writer attributes most of the statements (speaking in the first person) to God or Jesus.

CONCLUSION: The statements in Revelation can be taken as being relative; "shortly" from the point of view of God, Jesus and indeed of John himself, writing as if transported in spirit thousands of years into the future to "the Lord's day" (compare Rev 1:10).

RELATED POSTS

Does Revelation 22:6 saying the events would happen "shortly" necessarily mean in the first century ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 233#905233




NOTE: The above series of posts (#13-14) represent my personal beliefs on this question as one of Jehovah's Witnesses; ie they are all faith based statements.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

QUESTION How can the verses in the above extract be explained?


I explained these Scriptures in my earlier post on this topic. I will repost the links in case you missed them:

Mark 13:19 "great tribulation"
Matthew, 24:34 "this generation"
Luke 21:32 "this generation"

What is the generation Jesus said would see the end of the present system of things?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 061#775061

Why did Jesus refer to a generation not "passing away" if he was referring to a single event?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 219#752219

Matthew 16:28 "some standing here"
Mark 9:1 "some of thoose standing here"
Luke 9:27 "some of those standing here"

Did Jesus indicate that his first century disciples would see him returned in Kingdom power?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 172#752172

Did not Jesus say (in Matthew 16 verse 27) that he would "repay everyone" in the lifetime of any of his listeners?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 624#836624

I clicked your link on "What is the generation Jesus said..." and what a load it is.

The full quote reads from Matthew 24:34 reads as follows "I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place." - NLT

CONCLUSION: Jesus reference to "this generation" had a two-fold fulfillment

#1 The Generation that would be alive in 70CE
#2 The Generation that would be alive at the end of the world system (21st Century)

According to you, Jesus is referring to two separate generations when he says "this generation". How does that work in English, or any other language? How does a person who says "this generation" mean two separate ones, when he gives no indication for it? You have to twist and stretch this interpretation not from anything Jesus actually said (or is claimed to have said) but from other things, other sources.

JW, does your logic work here?
This car crashed into a brick wall, and killed a family of four
Can I get away with saying that I'm actually referring to two different cars there? Did I give any indication that I was talking about more than the one car?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 15 by JehovahsWitness]

Thus we can reasonably presume that the events would be "near" or "coming quickly", not necessarily from a human perspective but from the point f view of the originator of the statements (ie God). Indeed the writer attributes most of the statements (speaking in the first person) to God or Jesus.

The only reason you're promoting this interpretation is because it's been thousands of years and so far...no fulfillment of prophecy (other than the invisible Jesus taking up his sovereignty in heaven that you believe has already taken place).
Consider also who the message is aimed at. Thus, the person saying the message ought to tailor the message in a way that we would understand. If I tell you that next week I'm going to pop around for a cup of tea, I don't get to take it back and say that for me, next week means next year, once the week comes and goes with no visit from myself. No, what happens in that situation is that I lied.