otseng wrote: ↑Sat Jan 20, 2024 5:14 am
There are two cases to be addressed. One is those that are against the judicial laws and another against internal values.
For judicial laws, why would they exist universally? If one country considered them to be acceptable, would that be OK?
OK according to whom? The country, the individuals those laws favor, God, me, you? I'm really not sure we are getting anywhere if you can't recognize the problem with this line of thinking.
All morals are subjective until they are proven to be Objective: what distinguishes an OMV? What property do they have, and can you point to one, now, that we'd all recognize is an OMV whether we agree with it or not? What is the property we'd expect?
It can't be that we agree on it or not, or recognize it or not.
For example, the Sun is a sphere. Agree, disagree, ignore it... whatever, it's still a sphere and can be demonstrated as such. If you still refuse to acknowledge it, it's simply your opinion, but the Sun remains spherical.
The objective qualities are:
Solar Eclipses: During a solar eclipse, the Moon passes between the Earth and the Sun, casting a shadow on Earth. The shadow's edge always appears round, indicating that the Sun is a roughly spherical object. The shape of the shadow, known as the umbra, is consistent with what would be expected from a spherical light source.
Solar Limb Darkening: When we observe the Sun's outer edge (limb), we notice that it appears darker than the center. This limb darkening is a result of the Sun's spherical shape, causing the light to travel through a larger portion of the solar atmosphere at the limb compared to the center.
Gravity: The Sun's gravitational influence on nearby objects is consistent with a massive, roughly spherical body. The orbits of planets around the Sun, as well as the trajectories of comets and other celestial bodies, follow gravitational laws that are explained by a massive spherical object at the center.
Solar Rotation: Observations of the Sun's rotation provide evidence for its spherical shape. Different latitudes of the Sun rotate at different rates, a phenomenon known as solar differential rotation. This behavior is expected in a gaseous, spherical object.
Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO): Modern space-based observatories, such as the SDO, continuously monitor the Sun in multiple wavelengths. These observations, including high-resolution images and videos, confirm the Sun's spherical shape. Variations in solar activity, such as sunspots and solar flares, occur across the curved surface of the Sun.
Helioseismology: Helioseismology is the study of solar vibrations and oscillations. By analyzing the Sun's seismic waves, scientists can infer its internal structure. The behavior of these waves is consistent with the Sun having a spherical shape.
What is it about OMVs that you can list?
For internal values, why ought they be considered to be wrong? If another person held a differing value, why would they be considered to be wrong?
They are wrong to you, to your family, group, clan, State, country, etc.
I'd offer that harm is the measure, but I know you disagree with that, which makes me worried for our future if Theists continue to develop our moral values.
You are going to say, "Well, that doesn't make them wrong in a universal sense."
That's right. But, IMO, there are no OMVs and that we Moral Agents must put in the hard work to navigate the cold, uncaring universe the best we can.
Let me ask you a more critical question:
What is the defining feature of an OMV? It can't be universal agreement, as we know OMVs are democratically decided. What is ONE OMV, and how do you know it's an OMV?
I believe in moral realism, which states that morals are independent of humans. Morals exist, even before humans started to exist. So morals are not decided by humans.
As for examples of OMV, that is what I've been presenting.
Cutting in front of the kid is wrong, even if there are no humans? Even if the kid is chatting with the cashier, and you are trying to buy life saving medicine for your child?
Seems it's absurd to me to consider anything absolutely wrong unless you make it situational.
One would assume that if there is an OMV, it would not have universal agreement. For example, not all people think the 10Cs are real, yet, a Christian might try to argue that they are OMVs but the nature of them being expressed by Moses.
I assume you meant OMV would
have universal agreement.
No, that's my point. Even with Universal agreement, that doesn't mean there are OMVs (it was universally agreed that human sacrifice was considered moral, or infanticide, slavery, rape, etc.
My point is, one would expect an OMV to be obvious even if people didn't accept it. Like it wasn't legal for a white and black person to marry: Maybe that's exactly what God wanted, but people disagreed - but we'd all look at the law and say, "But it's the law - God's law - Universal Law - Objective."
For example, the Law of Gravity seems Objective. Some people believe they can fly when they jump off a building. So where is the OMV like that?
An inviolate law.
Like, if you try to cut in front of a kid at a store while trying to by a life-saving inhaler for your child, the universe simply stops you.
As for the Ten Commandments, I actually do not believe it is any laws or commandments (including the Bible) that is our source of objective moral values. Rather, they are built into us as humans. So everyone would have a sense of OMV, even if they've never been exposed to things like the Decalogue. What the Decalogue does do is codify some of the objective moral values into a written form.
As for universal agreement, let's take slavery as an example. It was only recently in human history that slavery has been outlawed. So, prior to that, slavery was universally practiced and accepted. Does that mean slavery was morally right in the past?
Again, according to who? The Law? The slave? A person who didn't like slavery? God? The Universe?
The best case I would make is that it was clear that it harms people, so if we tie morality to harm - yes, it was always wrong.
I'd love to know what measure you use? That God says so? I haven't heard God speak. Is he going to go on tour soon so we can see what he thinks?