How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2831

Post by boatsnguitars »

otseng wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:17 am A common charge against the shroud, particularly by Christians, is why is there no explicit mention of a shroud with the image of Jesus on it in the Bible?

Earlier I mentioned there's 4 possible reasons:
- burial shrouds were considered unclean by the Jews
- the shroud was kept secret so it could not be destroyed as evidence by the Romans or Jews
- it clashed with the mindset of the Jews since the shroud represented suffering
- it clashed with Jewish sensitivities

But even with these, I do believe there are indirect references in the Bible regarding the post resurrection shroud.

I've argued the early Christians communicated in code and also the Bible is full of indirect references. It is therefore reasonable, and perhaps also expected, no direct references will be made to the post resurrection shroud. If any references would be made, it would be indirect.

Larry Stalley has written an extensive introductory article on possible verses that indirectly reference the shroud:
Skeptics and critics make a strong argument against the authenticity of the Shroud of
Turin with this simple observation: The Biblical writers failed to mention such a
marvelous treasure! 3 However, due to the threat of confiscation and destruction of the
Shroud by enemies, a plausible inference can be made that early Church leaders would
want to keep the Shroud’s existence a secret from outsiders. This paper provides brief
analyses of statements from within the New Testament that might be “veiled” or
“cryptic” references to what we know today as the Shroud of Turin. No fewer than
twelve texts are strong candidates in that regard. Another dozen statements are
considered secondary candidates. Elsewhere the author has written an extensive
exegesis on seven of these passages. 4 This paper is intended to serve as an introduction
to these Biblical texts.
https://www.academia.edu/42193327/Are_T ... =thumbnail

The first reference is Galatians 3:1.

AMP:
O YOU poor and silly and thoughtless and unreflecting and senseless Galatians! Who has fascinated or bewitched or cast a spell over you, unto whom--right before your very eyes--Jesus Christ (the Messiah) was openly and graphically set forth and portrayed as crucified?

ESV:
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

ISV:
You foolish Galatians! Who put you under a spell? Was not Jesus the Messiah clearly portrayed before your very eyes as having been crucified?

KJV:
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Lamsa:
O FOOLISH Galatians, who has be witched you from your faith after Jesus Christ, crucified, has been pictured before your eyes?

NET:
You foolish Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified!

NLT:
Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ's death was made as clear to you as if you had seen a picture of his death on the cross.

The question is what did the Galatians see?

Without the TS, the explanations are weak. First off, they could not have actually seen Jesus on the cross and there is no commentator that holds to this view. The most common interpretation is Paul so graphically preached about the crucifixion that the Galatians saw it vividly in their minds.

But, Paul emphasized the point "before your very eyes", which indicates they visually saw something. He did not say "before your very ears you heard".
The Galatians have seen something. Remember that Paul is engaged in a debate in
the form of a letter. If he attempts to make a point in a way that is weak or illogical, he
loses. He cannot appeal to the Galatians by saying in effect: “You saw it with your own
eyes,” if both he and the Galatians know no one saw anything. Paul certainly means the
Galatians saw something extraordinary, something which in the wrong hands had the
power to “bewitch.” We would have expected him to say: “It was in your hearing that
Jesus Christ was publicly proclaimed as crucified.” But that is not what he says.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/stlbaltzpaper.pdf

"Vividly portrayed" in the Greek is "prographō". Stalley notes this word was used by Greek writers for the posting of public notices.
Also, the verb translated “vividly depicted (or posted up)” is in the past, aorist tense
from προγράφω. In this context, the verb carries the idea “to show forth” or “to portray
publicly.” Προγράφω was used by Greek writers for posting an “official notice,” an
“edict,” or a “warrant,” such as in the public square.

- “This was the common word for the posting of public notices.”
- F.F. Bruce comments: “‘…display before (one’s audience),’ as on a public
placard—a thoroughly classical usage.”
https://www.academia.edu/42193327/Are_T ... =thumbnail

If Gal 3:1 is a reference to the shroud, it would make sense. Paul had shown the Galatians the shroud as part of his preaching. The Galatains saw with their own eyes Jesus portrayed as crucified.
This is full on conspiracy theory thinking:

1. What would the shroud have been evidence for, if Jesus was walking around with them? Some rag with blood on it? But, I'm going to guess you believe the image was vivid... but apparently supernatural images fade with time?!?!? C'mon!

2. The translation is so forced. It makes no sense except to a conspiracy theorist - which is to say, it doesn't make sense.

Just find a quote that is explicit like, "Then I took the shroud with the image of Jesus magically painted in the style of an art form that won't be seen for hundreds of years and hid it at my grandma's house."

Just find that confession...

Oh, wait, we already have a confession - from the artist!!!!!!!!!! LOOK AT IT!!!!
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2832

Post by earl »

" What would the shroud have been evidence for, if Jesus was walking around with them?"
Jo.20.8 He saw and believed
The shroud was in the tomb ,Peter and John saw it and believed.
The appearance of Jesus to his apostles and others may not be what they expected.Lu.24.16 "they were kept from recognizing him"
Lu.24.31 "Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him"
Mk.16.12 Jesus appeared in another form to "two of them"Lu.24.13 .
The "two of them"claim Jesus disappeared in before their eyes.
Human bodies are not known to instantly appear and disappear .

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2833

Post by TRANSPONDER »

That's actually a good point. The Shroud apologist thinking is of course faithbased. Since it is real, the disciples must have kept it as a relic. It does not ask why they would have done so. Wearing my theist hat, I might argue that they had no idea that Jesus would be leaving them. He'd promised to return and he had. They would have no more reason to keep the shroud as a relic than dig up the cross and prop it up in a corner of the parlour as a kepsake. Which sorta deals with the true cross relics, which I can't recall any Bible apologist actually arguing for.

But the shroud is at least convincing looking, more than the true nail, anyway, which looks like the top of an iron railing. but still with the Theist hat on I could argue that after Jesus had floated up into the clouds and one eventually says "Well, darn, I thought he would set about redeeming Israel" And they go back to Bethany for beans on toast and James sighs, "we never even got a pencil sketch to hang on the wall".

"I'll remember him with the hand I put in his side" declared Thomas. "I'll never wash that hand again." as he picks up a piece of toast.

"Hang on," says Peter, "Lazarus, when does your sister do her laundry? There might just be an impressed image left on that bedsheet..."

The apologist can always make something up.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2834

Post by otseng »

earl wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 12:25 pm That the body of Jesus was dematerialized and thereafter rematerialized as Jesus cannot be confirmed from the NT.
It is tradition that this is the case but
Mk.16.12 clearly states Jesus was in another form prior to the doubting Thomas account.
brunumb wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:16 pm What became of the matter between dematerialisation and rematerialisation? It is all contrary to the laws of physics, so I am interested in what miraculous process was involved.
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 3:36 am
otseng wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:10 am Of course the body had rematerialized. Jesus appeared afterwards to Mary, the disciples, and other people as well.
There is absolutely no science involved in this statement. This is religious belief.
I'm not claiming the rematerialization of Jesus is scientific. What I have been claiming has been the study of the shroud itself is scientific. Rematerialization is not related to the shroud per se. As far as I can tell, the shroud does not contain any evidence of rematerialization, only dematerialization.

Rematerialization is what is described in the Bible. This is textual evidence, not scientific evidence.

Obviously the rematerialized body of Jesus was not the same as the body before. Nobody really exactly recognized him except from subtle clues. He could walk through walls, but he could eat as well. His resurrection body was neither totally earthly, nor heavenly, but like something in between.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2835

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:01 pmAn elevator shaft is vertical. The cranium is curved. Even if the part of the cloth covering the curve fell straight downward, it would still contact the body where the curve was.
That's why I mentioned angle encoding stopped imaging at a certain angle that is less than 90:
otseng wrote: Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:09 am For the angle encoding, I don't think the threshold of lack of imaging is only at 90 degrees, but somewhere less than that (maybe 80?). Around the ears, there had to be some angle of the cloth around that area, yet the ears are also missing.
Circular argument.
How is it circular? Just because I use artifact evidence and textual evidence does not make an argument circular.
There's so much evidence against Jesus having been the Jewish Messiah beyond just the resurrection stories that it renders the Turin cloth a non-issue.
We can perhaps get to those later. But the issue right now is the resurrection.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2836

Post by otseng »

brunumb wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:16 pm How was the cloth essentially unscathed in all of this?
Not sure what you mean by unscathed. The dematerialization of the body left a body imprint on the cloth, so it was affected.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2837

Post by otseng »

earl wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:43 pm Dematerialization theory has no purpose because the stone was rolled away from the tomb thus not requiring any effort to teleport a body outside the tomb.
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:37 pmAlso Matthew makes it clear that the tomb door was rolled away as the women were about to arrive, but Jesus is already gone. Unless Jesus really could walk through walls, we have to discard Mathew as invented narrative, as though there was really any doubt of it.
The stone was rolled away not because so Jesus could walk out of the tomb, but so Mary and the disciples could walk into the tomb. Remember Jesus could walk through walls in his resurrected body, so he didn't require the rock to be moved to walk out of it. There's also religious symbolism in the rock being rolled away, but those are not directly relevant.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2838

Post by otseng »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:37 pm The idea that Paul put the thing on display is intriguing but I am used to Paul putting forward personal arguments as proof before 'yore werry eyes', so it at best is possible if the Shroud is a real relic of the resurrection, but it is not in itself evidence FOR the Shroud being a relic of the crucifixion.
Correct, I'm not presenting the passages that indirectly reference the shroud as evidence for the authenticity of the shroud, but simply as counters to the argument there are no references to the post resurrection shroud in the Bible.
It smacks of plot holes rather than any other kind.
What holes are you referring to?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2839

Post by otseng »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 3:36 am It's absurd that this has gone on this long. If someone believes God can attach an elephants head to keep a decapitated man alive (Ganesha) then surely there are no limits to the "hypotheses" that that person can invent to "explain" any event.

Would you agree that if a person used such reasoning that it wouldn't be science, but religious belief?
What has been absurd is not my arguments. I've been providing evidence with citations in all my arguments. Assertions like yours is what is irrelevant since its not even related to the discussion and merely personal statements with no evidential backing.

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Shroud of Turin summary

Post #2840

Post by otseng »

Synopsis of argument the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus Christ:

What is the Shroud of Turin?
The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man.
https://www.shroud.com/
Shroud of Turin, also called Holy Shroud, Italian Santa Sindone, a length of linen that for centuries was purported to be the burial garment of Jesus Christ. It has been preserved since 1578 in the royal chapel of the cathedral of San Giovanni Battista in Turin, Italy. Measuring 4.3 metres (14 feet 3 inches) long and 1.1 metres (3 feet 7 inches) wide, it seems to portray two faint brownish images, those of the back and front of a gaunt, sunken-eyed, 5-foot 7-inch man—as if a body had been laid lengthwise along one half of the shroud while the other half had been doubled over the head to cover the whole front of the body from face to feet. The images contain markings that allegedly correspond to the crucifixion wounds of Jesus, including thorn marks on the head, lacerations (as if from flogging) on the back, bruises on the shoulders, and various stains of what is presumed to be blood
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shroud-of-Turin

Summary of arguments on the Shroud of Turin

There's two main views on the shroud:
A) It's a medieval fake that was produced by some artist
B) It's the burial shroud of Jesus of Nazareth

Arguments against position A:

1. It is not artwork.
a. This is the conclusion of the 1978 STURP team.
No pigments, paints, dyes or stains have been found on the fibrils. X-ray, fluorescence and microchemistry on the fibrils preclude the possibility of paint being used as a method for creating the image.

We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin.
https://www.shroud.com/78conclu.htm

b. Silence from art community on the TS

viewtopic.php?p=1106931#p1106931

c. Silence in art journals on the TS

viewtopic.php?p=1108361#p1108361

d. Testimony from Wesselow and Tite that it is not artwork

viewtopic.php?p=1107626#p1107626

viewtopic.php?p=1108258#p1108258

2. Top arguments for fake position are dubious.


3. There are no viable naturalistic explanations for the origin of the image dispite several attempts.


Arguments refuting position A and supporting position B:

1. It is the most scientifically studied artifact.

viewtopic.php?p=1106931#p1106931

2. Features of the shroud predate the invention of scientific technologies by hundreds of years.


3. Image and blood have features we cannot fully explain.

a. Image only on topmost fibers

viewtopic.php?p=1105228#p1105228

b. Blood is still red

viewtopic.php?p=1105590#p1105590

4. Features of the shroud predate the use of art techniques by hundreds of years.


5. Image is medically accurate.

viewtopic.php?p=1106892

6. Features depicted are contrary to artwork and instead depict how it should have actually happened.


7. Image formation is not based on what we visually would see, but on how the cloth would be affected by the imaging mechanism. On the first order, things are depicted correctly, but on the second order, we see things missing as well as distortions.

viewtopic.php?p=1107092#p1107092

8. Blood and image patterns precisely match the gospel accounts and uniqely points to Jesus of Nazareth.

viewtopic.php?p=1119259#p1119259

9. There are additional details on the TS that are not present in the gospel accounts.

10. Features of the shroud point to 1st century Jerusalem origin.

a. Vanillin test

viewtopic.php?p=1113484#p1113484

b. Dimensions of cloth match Assyrian cubit

viewtopic.php?p=1119548#p1119548

c. Side strip seam matches Masada seam

viewtopic.php?p=1119872#p1119872

d. Banding not seen in medieval weaving, but in ancient weaving

viewtopic.php?p=1120100#p1120100

e. Calcium particles on the feet area matching Jerusalem

viewtopic.php?p=1120231#p1120231

f. Wide Angle X-ray Scattering (WAXS) points to first century

viewtopic.php?p=1120354#p1120354

g. DNA analysis has more people touching the shroud from Middle East than Europe

viewtopic.php?p=1120453#p1120453
viewtopic.php?p=1120776#p1120776

The preponderence of scientific evidence of the shroud as noted above points to the authenticity of the shroud as the burial cloth of Jesus of Nazareth. However, the argument above does not claim anything miraculous occurred or that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. It is through studying the body image we can conclude the body image was a result of something outside of current science.

Summary of top body imaging theories

The imaging theories can be broadly grouped into naturalistic explanations (NE) and non-naturalistic/supernatural explanations (SE).

Naturalistic explanations can be subdivided into a work of an artist (NE-art) or something that would happen naturally without any involvement of an artist (NE-nature).

NE-art would involve things like painting, scorch, dye, rubbing, photograph, and bas-relief. This is the least likely since this was the conclusion of the 1978 STURP investigation:
viewtopic.php?p=1124026#p1124026

I've also argued there is virtual silence from the art community on the TS. Yet, the TS is the most scientifically studied artifact in human history. So, it makes no sense the TS is a work of art.

I've spent time on the bas-relief in several posts arguing it is not viable:
viewtopic.php?p=1113694#p1113694
viewtopic.php?p=1124310#p1124310
viewtopic.php?p=1124427#p1124427

I've also addressed the proto-photograph method:
viewtopic.php?p=1124231#p1124231

The top NE-nature explanation is the Maillard reaction, proposed by Ray Rogers. I've addressed that at:
viewtopic.php?p=1124081#p1124081

Three top SE explanations are corona/electrostatic discharge, neutron emission, and cloth collapse.

I've addressed the corona/electrostatic discharge:
viewtopic.php?p=1124174#p1124174

and the neutron emission:
viewtopic.php?p=1124551#p1124551

I presented the cloth collapse here:
viewtopic.php?p=1123740#p1123740

There are actually more theories than what I've presented, but most all the others are variations on the ones above.

There is no theory that fully explains all the features of the body image, but the one that explains the most is Jackson's cloth collapse theory.

viewtopic.php?p=1125096#p1125096

Therefore Jackson's cloth collapse theory involving the body dematerializing best explains the body image compared to all other imaging theories.

Blood stain theories

No viable artistic method has been proposed to account for the blood stains and there has been no attempt to replicate all the blood markings. So, at this time, really the only viable explanation for the blood on the shroud is the actual burial of Jesus.

viewtopic.php?p=1125806#p1125806

Dematerialization and resurrection

So, what could've caused Jesus to dematerialize? We have no naturalistic scenarios to explain this. It would be a miracle. It is not a proof of Jesus' resurrection, but it would be a rational conclusion given all the evidence from the shroud.
The obvious point of weakness in the design argument from the Shroud is
that our evidence that weak dematerialization was the mechanism by which the
Shroud was formed, while impressive, is not conclusive. However, the conjecture
that a very powerful intelligence would be responsible for such an extraordinary
event seems highly plausible.

The design argument from the
Shroud, however, on the Jackson-Trenn theory, shows that some intelligent,
purposive, and very powerful agent has acted in a specific event in comparatively
recent history.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/wiebe.pdf

So, what we have with the Shroud of Turin is verifiable evidence that supports the claim of the resurrection of Jesus.
On this theory, the Shroud offers evidence for two of the three crucial elements
implied by the claim that a Resurrection took place. This is an important
achievement, for two centuries of biblical criticism, much of it directed against the
Resurrection, in conjunction with increased standards of evidence as science has
been incorporated into all forms of critical thinking, have undermined confidence
both inside and outside the Church that the Resurrection ever occurred.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/wiebe.pdf

What is also interesting is Jesus said his resurrection would be the only evidence he would provide that he is the Messiah.

When asked by the Pharisees to show that he is from God, Jesus replied with the sign of Jonah.

[Mat 12:38-40 NIV] Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from you." 39 He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He also had said he would rebuild the temple in 3 days.

[Jhn 2:18-19 NIV] 18 The Jews then responded to him, "What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" 19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Both of these are references to him being resurrected after three days.

This evidence was not only for the Jews of the first century. It is evidence for us today as well. We have the actual shroud of Jesus in our hands today that testifies to Jesus being the Messiah.

viewtopic.php?p=1125229#p1125229

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