An Interlinear will show that YHWH was one of three who paid a visit to Abraham. YHWH came to earth as a man. He and the other visitors ate food as any human would do. It was YHWH who Abraham repeatedly asked if there were any righteous men in Sodom would He still destroy it?
If we can believe that YHWH came to earth in the form of a human being, ate and spoke as a man with Abraham, how is it some refuse to believe YHWH came to earth as a man called Jesus?
Abraham’s Visitors
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Abraham’s Visitors
Post #1”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #41[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #39]
Not at all. Abraham didn’t see the face of YHWH who lives in heaven. He saw the face of YHWH who visited and conversed with Abraham in the flesh of a man.
YHWH is omnipresent. He can be everywhere at the same time in whatever form he chooses.
The Scripture says YHWH appeared to Abraham. Abraham saw YHWH in the form of a man. He offered water and food to YHWH and the other two men. They accepted and ate.
Not at all. Abraham didn’t see the face of YHWH who lives in heaven. He saw the face of YHWH who visited and conversed with Abraham in the flesh of a man.
YHWH is omnipresent. He can be everywhere at the same time in whatever form he chooses.
The Scripture says YHWH appeared to Abraham. Abraham saw YHWH in the form of a man. He offered water and food to YHWH and the other two men. They accepted and ate.
”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #42[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #39]
I ask again.
Who appears to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, YHWH or an angel?
Who speaks in Genesis 18:13, 17, 20, 26, YHWH or an angel?
I ask again.
Who appears to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, YHWH or an angel?
Who speaks in Genesis 18:13, 17, 20, 26, YHWH or an angel?
”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #43There is only ONE Jehovah (YHWH)

This is nonsense? If you visit someone at another location (even in another form) its still YOU the individual. If Jehovah (YHWH) the Father visited Abraham and Abraham saw him on earth, he(YHWH) didnt leave another YHWH in heaven (because that would make two Jehovah's . Your dogma is in direct contradiction of scripture (see above)MissKate13 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:35 am
...Abraham didn’t see the face of YHWH who lives in heaven. He saw the face of YHWH who visited ...
Omnipresence is not the issue...SEEING God (wherever he is and whatever His powers) is what is under discussion. God himself said no man can SEE me and live, Abraham lived, so do you want to try again? Do you have an explanation without resorting to contradicting scripture.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:13 pm, edited 7 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #44So I ask AGAIN ...
Are you DENYING God's own words here in the Hebrew bible? Please explain them ...

Case closed.
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Did Moses speak to God through an angel at the burning bush?
viewtopic.php?p=1109747#p1109747
Are you DENYING God's own words here in the Hebrew bible? Please explain them ...

Nothing is mentioned about {to quote you} "in the flesh of a man", God didn't say "You cannot see me but you CAN see me if I'm in the flesh of a man"!"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)
Jehovah (YHWH) in the flesh is STILL the same person (individual). God said said "no man can see **ME**" Was it Him or was it not Him? If it wasn't really HIM then we are in agreement. If it was HIM either you or God have made mistake.Claiming that "seeing YHWH in human form is not seeing YHWH" ... is like claiming that seeing your husband in a dress isn't seeing your husband
Case closed.
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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 01, 2023 12:55 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #45Well considering this is a debate site if you post anything else I want to comment on I will but thanks.
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #46This discussion has no place here in Christianity and Apologetics where "Scripture" is not authoritative. This dialogue [which amounts to nothing more than 'How many angels can dance on the head of a pin] belongs inMissKate13 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 10:06 amIn many cases we see appearances by the angel of the Lord in Scripture.PolytheistWitch wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:46 pm Anytime someone visits a human being for the God of Abraham, they're an angel or the Holy Spirit. I don't see why all of a sudden now it's God himself or Jesus. Other than the burning bush there's no record of God directly visiting anyone, especially in any sort of human or humanoid form.
....
Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma where "Scripture" matters.
For the umpteenth time, please review the "Guidelines" for this forum, viewtopic.php?t=9741
"If you choose to debate in this sub-forum you are REQUIRED to honor the Guidelines."
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #47I’m happy to answer any and all questions. You, on the other hand, seem to avoid answering direct questions.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:45 amThere is only ONE Jehovah (YHWH)
This is nonsense? If you visit someone at another location (even in another form) its still YOU the individual. If Jehovah (YHWH) the Father visited Abraham and Abraham saw him on earth, he(YHWH) didnt leave another YHWH in heaven (because that would make two Jehovah's . Your dogma is in direct contradiction of scripture (see above)MissKate13 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:35 am
...Abraham didn’t see the face of YHWH who lives in heaven. He saw the face of YHWH who visited ...
Omnipresence is not the issue...SEEING God (wherever he is and whatever His powers) is what is under discussion. God himself said no man can SEE me and live, Abraham lived, so do you want to try again? Do you have an explanation without resorting to contradicting scripture.
Here they are again.
Who appears to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, YHWH or an angel?
Who speaks in Genesis 18:13, 17, 20, 26, YHWH or an angel?
If and when you choose to answer my questions, I’ll be happy to readdress your question about seeing God face to face.
”For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #48The divinely inspired biblical narrator also said that "Abraham stood yet before **JEHOVAH**." Was it Him or was it not him?JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:46 amJehovah (YHWH) said "no man can see **ME**" Was it Him or was it not Him?
Now say it again, but stamp your feet this time.
By apologetics rules, it wouldn't matter which of the contradictory verses is wrong, even if this argument were in T&D. You've offered no reason to select your solution over the equally valid (or invalid) converse. Mere stubbornness is a poor substitute for theology and an even poorer one for evidence.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #49MissKate13 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:24 pmWho appears to Abraham in Genesis 18:1, YHWH or an angel?
DID ABRAHAM LITERALLY SEE ALMIGHTY GOD IN THE FLESH ?
.GENESIS 18:1
Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre+ while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day

Since YHWH himself explicitly states no man can see me and live, it is not possible that Abraham saw YHWH. In scripture angels are sometimes spoken of as "being" Jehovah in the sense that they are acting for and speaking on behalf of Him, being visible representatives of that One. Note these parallel verses speaking of Moses' encounter at the burning bush:
Evidently the account here refers to the angel as God. Further support for this view is found at Hosea 12v4 which reads : He [Jacob] kept contending with an angel and prevailed. Yet by, Jacobs own recountjng of the same event he says " “I have seen God face-to-face, yet my life*was preserved.” (see Genesis 32:30)Exodus 3:4, 6 : God called unto him out of the midst of the bush...
Exodus 3: 2 the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush.
This is not unusual even in English. To illustrate: One might read in a newspaper that "President Trump says he'lll sit down with Putin for peace talks" when in fact the actual offer was worded to Putin via the Secretary of State or some other high official. In a similar way Jacob said he "saw God" not literally but saw a physical manifestation of God through an encounter with his (God's) representative.
CONCLUSION: Far from being a "contradiction" the scriptures sometimes speak of people addressing God's angelic representatives as "Jehovah' or "God" in recognition of who they speak and act for.The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges puts it : "The face of God was to be seen in the Angel: he that looked on the Angel saw the Presence of Jehovah."
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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:47 pm, edited 7 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Abraham’s Visitors
Post #50As "full" as unjustified speculation can be, anyway.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.