Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?

[Haven]

One of the most prominent claims Christians make about the Bible is that it is the word of their god, and is ultimately of divine origin (either through God controlling the human authors, dictating words to them, or 'inspiring' them to write).

If this purported authorship by an omniscient being were true, one would expect the Bible to be more scientifically and ethically advanced than the average person of the time and place (1000 BCE-100 CE, Middle East & Mediterranean -- the Ancient Near East [ANE]).

One would expect to find, for example, scientifically accurate insights about the origin of the Universe and Earth, the animals that inhabit the planet, the origin of humanity, the nature of earthquakes, floods, and climate, and so on. One would expect useful insights on how to cure diseases, make childbirth safer, develop technologies to improve lives and help those with disabilities, et cetera.

Finally, one would expect an advanced moral vision, one that explicitly condemns slavery and sexual exploitation, affirms the equality of all nations, stands against war and genocide, declares the equality and inclusion of women and LGBTQIA people, and implores us to care for the Earth, avoiding disasters like famines, pandemics, climate change, pollution, and so on.

________________

The problem, for Christianity, is that no such advanced wisdom is found in the Bible. Instead, we have a collection of writings that by and large affirm the common knowledges, beliefs, and prejudices of the human inhabitants of the ANE.

One finds, for example, numerous scientifically inaccurate passages about the Earth being flat and resting on pillars, life being created in six days, the sky being made of water above a "firmament" and so on. It contains a statement that showing striped sticks to goats will cause their offspring to be striped. It says that a menstrual cycle made a woman "unclean."

The Bible contains numerous passages on planting crops, slaughtering animals, and reaping grain, but no accurate information on how to cure diseases or make childbirth safer. It contains no mention of mental illness, but talks endlessly about demons and devils causing illness, deafness, and insanity. It is about as scientifically accurate as an average ANE peasant.

__________

The Bible's moral vision also reflects a viewpoint that cannot be called advanced in any way. It calls homosexuality an abomination, but condones slavery, pedophilia (old men 'marrying' young girls), concubinage (sex slavery), and polygyny (many women / young girls 'marrying' one man, often for political reasons). It prevaricates on rape, calling for the death penalty when the victim is a "virgin," but also says a woman must marry her rapist. It says that a woman who doesn't scream loud enough is lying about being raped, and should be stoned to death for "adultery."

The Bible is extremely sexist in general, saying that women are subservient, influenced by evil, weak-minded, weak-bodied, created as men's "helpers" (not equals), not fit to speak in church, should be "silent" with "all subjection," and generally made to be vessels for birth, homemakers and little more. Christian scripture is also racist, explicitly affirming the Jews as God's "chosen people," and giving them favorable treatment compared to the rest of humanity.

It is violent and warlike, containing commands to wipe out entire ethnicities (Amalekites, Merathaimites), kill civilians (including children), take young girls as sex slaves / spoils of war, execute people for religious disagreements, and take/trade slaves. The Bible condemns gender non-conforming people, but commands slaves to serve their masters with subjugation, and never once says slavery is in any way immoral or not the "natural state of things." It says non-human animals are mere objects for human exploitation.

_________

I can go on and on and on, but the point should be obvious--the scientific and moral content of the Bible is more backward than even the most reactionary fundamentalist today. Far from advancing a more enlightened, wise viewpoint, its content is very human and very dated to the time and place in which it was written. It appears clear that the Biblical record contains human wisdom and foolishness, rather than any kind of divine communication.

Debate question: Does the Bible contain more than human wisdom? Is there any evidence of divine authorship?

[JehovahsWitness]

The Bible is extremely sexist ...

GALATIANS 3:28 NIV

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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[JehovahsWitness]

...life being created in six days, ...

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[Haven]

Can the Hebrew word "chuwg" legitimately be translated as "globe" or "sphere"?
viewtopic.php?p=800467#p800467

When there is ambiguity in which sense a Hebrew word is being used, you look at background information to see if the same topic is discussed in other ways. The Bible discusses the shape of the Earth a few times, in ways that make it clear a flat Earth is being envisioned (see my most recent post, as well as: Psalm 104, Deuteronomy 4, Job 38 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology). The Wikipedia link is actually a decent, unbiased overview of Biblical cosmology. Unlike the JWs, academic Biblical scholars have no agenda to prove or pre-conceived dogmas to affirm.

FURTHER READING Does the Bible Teach That the Earth Is Flat?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... lat-earth/

Merely posting links from the Jehovah’s Witness website is not debate.

[Haven]

To learn more please go to other posts related to .... [apologetics from the Jehovah’s Witness Website]

Are you going to present any original thoughts, or are you just going to post links from the JW website?

I’ve been to that website. I’ve seen the the common creationist (both young-earth and JW-style old earth forms of creationism) arguments before, and I’ve reviewed the evidence in question independently—and what I’ve found says the JW position on origins and biblical divinity is not coherent with a scientific view of reality.

I’ve also already addressed everything that you’ve posted several times: including the Galatians 3:28 quote, chuwg, the Bible’s thoughts on women, and the other verses (which I and others have mentioned) which show that the Bible does contain bigotry and atrocity (which you conveniently have ignored over and over again). I’ve seen you cut my comments down to half a sentence, and then reply with JW website copy that I have already addressed in the parts of my posts you snipped away and ignored!

I would be interested in hearing your thoughts, your take on the evidence. What do you think of my OP, and the other three posts I’ve made here (which already address the arguments made on the JW website, including the entire body of Biblical literature, not just a few nice-sounding quotes)?

Do you have any of your own thoughts on why the Bible is divine, why it cannot be of human origin? Simply posting links is not enough; you must also understand what the sources discuss, as well as relevant background information (a bit of historical anthropology and Biblical criticism would be a nice start). Why post Galatians 3:28 without also mentioning Ephesians 5, or Isaiah 40 without Psalm 104? You mentioned different senses of chuwg (presumably in modern Hebrew), I mention other Biblical and contemporary sources that clarify that usage (which went ignored). I’ve already addressed everything in those links, and pointed out why they are mistaken, irrelevant, or actually confirm my position on Biblical humanity (such as the slavery and women sections on the JW website that you linked). You snipped out that content and have repeatedly ignored it.

If you have any new evidence or argument, please present it. If all you are going to do is post links without discussion, I will not respond to such posts. They seem low-effort, low-context, and barely address the central debate question raised in the OP (“does the Bible contain more than human wisdom?”). Maybe note WHY you believe it does?

I’m sorry if this seems harsh, it just feels a bit frustrating when I spend nearly an hour crafting detailed responses, finding primary and reputable secondary sources and summarizing them / explaining why they are relevant, only to met with ad copy, images, and no real discussion of or rebuttal to my comments.

Have an excellent weekend! I really don’t want to seem harsh or cruel, am just explaining why I feel as though your contextless links are inadequate for this debate. Also keep in mind that this discussion is on the Bible itself, not one church's interpretation of it. This discussion is meant to look at the text itself, to go beyond any church's teachings and look at the Bible as a collective of ancient writings, like any other, with a historical-critical lens.

[Haven]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #13]

One more thing from your links that I want to address: the JW website's interpretations take a lot of liberty with the Biblical text. Specifically, these interpretations read a modern scientific view into an ancient text, finding things that simply weren't there. Genesis 1:1 / the Bereshit sentence was meant to be an overview sentence, summarizing the chapter. You can see a similar overview in Genesis 6:9 (Noah story) or Job 1:1-5. It doesn't imply the Earth was already created after Genesis 1:1. Rather, 1:1 was the overview, 1:2-End of Chapter was the "how," the details.

Here is a book, by Old Testament scholar Gordon J. Wenham, that discusses Genesis 1 in more detail. It is a long read, but it is thorough and gives an unbiased (if slightly pro-Christian) view on the topic. It mentions overview sentences: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr ... &q&f=false

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE BIBLE CONDONE VIOLENCE?

The Bible is ...violent and warlike, containing commands to wipe out entire ethnicities ...

MARK 12: 30-31

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

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THE BIBLE , WAR and ... VIOLENCE

[JehovahsWitness]

Duplicate

[Haven]

DOES THE BIBLE CONDONE VIOLENCE?

MARK 12: 30-31

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”

What about Exodus 17:8-16?

8 The Amalekites came and attacked the Israelites at Rephidim. 9 Moses said to Joshua, “Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands.”

10 So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill. 11 As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning. 12 When Moses’ hands grew tired, they took a stone and put it under him and he sat on it. Aaron and Hur held his hands up—one on one side, one on the other—so that his hands remained steady till sunset. 13 So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven.”

15 Moses built an altar and called it The Lord is my Banner. 16 He said, “Because hands were lifted up against[a] the throne of the Lord, the Lord will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation.”

[Haven]

Also, Numbers 31:

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

(emphasis mine)

In this passage, the Biblical god explicitly commands his followers to take child sex slaves. How can you look at this and see "love?" It's not enough to quote sweet-sounding passages from the Gospels. You have to take the Bible as a whole, not cherry-pick passages that present it in an unrealistic light. The Bible contains both good and evil passages, and a lot of neutral ones -- just like ANY human writing from those ancient times. However, the key is human--a god (at least one worthy of reverence) would never write a book like this.

[AgnosticBoy]

Also, Numbers 31:

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

(emphasis mine)

In this passage, the Biblical god explicitly commands his followers to take child sex slaves. How can you look at this and see "love?" It's not enough to quote sweet-sounding passages from the Gospels. You have to take the Bible as a whole, not cherry-pick passages that present it in an unrealistic light. The Bible contains both good and evil passages, and a lot of neutral ones -- just like ANY human writing from those ancient times. However, the key is human--a god (at least one worthy of reverence) would never write a book like this.

It's reasonable to say that these girls were saved for relations with men (esp. since young boys were not spared), but I wouldn't go as far as saying they were used as child sex slaves. The Law specifically forbids fornication or sex outside of a marital arrangement so that would rule out sex slavery. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 support my point.

10 “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive, 11 and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife, 12 and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails. 13 And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. 14 But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

I also see the text you're referring to as being a mix of both description and prescription. Not everything in the Bible is made for instruction, teaching, or prescribing. Some information is just detail on ordinary events without any consideration for something religious or spiritual. Perhaps, in this case Moses was wrong in providing some sort of concession to allow some to live as opposed to killing everyone.