The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 698 by Checkpoint]

Let's start with his ministry, then the ransom and resurrection, then the ascension and seating.

#1 For what purpose was Jesus anointed and when?

a) Was Jesus anointed when he was born?

b) If so how does that differentiate from what happened at his baptism?

The kingdom had come near in the sense that its king had come near, as that verse illustrates.

#2 "Near" meaning...?

#3 So are you sayjng Jesus was king before his sacrifice?

3a) Was he born king, if so was he born anointed (see above)

...they are subject to him, the reigning and coming king.

#4 what was he reigning over before 33CE? If nothing was he not a king before 33 CE?

#5 Was the kingdom possible without the ransom, why? why not? Did the kingdom exist before the ransom?

#6 Who are "they" (Abel? Abraham? David..) and when did "they" enter the kingdom?

#7 "enter "meaning ....?

#8 You refer to "eternal kingdom life" what do you mean and do you have scriptural support for This?

What have you to say about these verses, then?

#9 In light of the above what have you to say about 1 Chron 29:11?

And finally ...

The Chronicles passage refers to YHVH prior to any Messianic kingdom.

#10 What is a Messianic Kingdom ?! and and do you have any scriptural support for the use of such an expression?

[Checkpoint]

Hello JW,

Plenty of questions, which I am likely to answer in due course, little by little.

As for today, the last shall be first, and only, because of what is involved.

Checkpoint wrote:
The Chronicles passage refers to YHVH prior to any Messianic kingdom.

#10 What is a Messianic Kingdom ?! and and do you have any scriptural support for the use of such an expression?

Interesting questions!

I did not introduce the expression "Messianic" into this discussion, you did, and gave scripture in support, and added further specifics to it.

So, my use of the term came as a direct result of your own usage, which was this:

4 WHAT IS THE "MESSIANIC" KINGDOM?

The kingdom is Jesus exercising designated power ...

Quote:
ISAIAH 9: 6-7

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.



#5 ARE THERE SPECIFIC GOALS THE KINGDOM IS TO ACHIEVE ?

The kingdom is Jesus exercising designated power ...with a specific goal.

...by which Jesus will act on behalf of his Father to deal with specific issues

It ...and Jesus being given permission to exert rulership on Gods behalf for a specific purpose.

This is the backdrop to most or all those other nine questions.

You have set specific boundaries. That's easy to do in theory.

As I see it, do we even agree on those boundaries?

Applying them to this or that, to before or after, is the real deal. And both of us are just humans with opinions and preferences.

We may be wasting our time.

Sometimes God is very precise, but sometimes He seems to be very imprecise.

Take me to task if you must, but just now I am taking a break.

[JehovahsWitness]

I did not introduce the expression "Messianic" into this discussion, you did, and gave scripture in support, and added further specifics to it. So, my use of the term came as a direct result of your own usage,

So do you believe the expression "Messianic kingdom" is appropriate (I presssume you do since you yourself seem to have adopted it). More importantly, do you agree the bible supports this teaching exactly as I specified? If not, what do you not agree with?

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello JW,

Plenty of questions, which I am likely to answer in due course, little by little.

Excellent I'll be interested in reading what you post.

No hurry, take your time.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Duplicate

[Checkpoint]

I did not introduce the expression "Messianic" into this discussion, you did, and gave scripture in support, and added further specifics to it. So, my use of the term came as a direct result of your own usage,

So do you believe the expression "Messianic kingdom" is appropriate (I presssume you do since you yourself seem to have adopted it). More importantly, do you agree the bible supports this teaching exactly as I specified? If not, what do you not agree with?

JW

I am comfortable with this expression in discussion with any JW.

I think it can be supported by Daniel 2 and, in general, by the N.T.

However, in regard to it "teaching exactly as I specified", no. Even if those were a possible yes, that is somewhat pointless, as when applied we are quite likely to disagree strongly.

Our nine remaining questions will, when answered, probably be apt illustrations of that.

[JehovahsWitness]

However, in regard to it "teaching exactly as I specified", no.

Okay well you can add that to our list of explainations I await. I'll question you fully after you have presented your explanation.

Again, no rush.


JW

[Checkpoint]

#1 For what purpose was Jesus anointed and when?

a) Was Jesus anointed when he was born?

b) If so how does that differentiate from what happened at his baptism?

Checkpoint wrote:
The kingdom had come near in the sense that its king had come near, as that verse illustrates.
#2 "Near" meaning...?

#3 So are you sayjng Jesus was king before his sacrifice?

3a) Was he born king, if so was he born anointed (see above)

Born a king? Apparently, yes; Matthew 2:2.

Anointed then? I have no idea.

So far as I am concerned, nearly all such details matter little, in the overall plan of God.

He attended to whatever did have meaning and purpose.

Spending our time trying to get it sorted, or seeing if we can agree about this and that, is a fool's errand we can and should leave well alone.

The fact is we have one major difference that will remain so until the second coming.

You say Jesus put his government in operation in 1914. We say that happened when he sat downat God's right hand after his ascension.

Perhaps it is time to leave that be at this point?

[JehovahsWitness]

So far as I am concerned, nearly all such details matter little, in the overall plan of God.

How convenient.

So I take it to I will not be cross examining me in future with demands for definitions of words and harmonisation of every single little detail of my posts to the point that I have to literally number and colour code every single word to demonstrate there is no contradiction of any detail of my post either with each other or with scripture?

Anointed then? I have no idea.

I didn't think so. The anointing of Jesus (the word "Christ"/"messiah" actually means anointed; a Christian should know the "minor detail" about the when the Christ or Messiah came and what he was anointed to do) and believe it or not it is inextricably linked to his kingship. But as you said, let us not concern ourselves with such details.

The fact is we have one major difference that will remain so until the second coming.

Not a problem for me.

Perhaps it is time to leave that be at this point?

You can do as you please, I was never stopping you.







JW




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[Checkpoint]

#4 what was he reigning over before 33CE? If nothing was he not a king before 33 CE?

#5 Was the kingdom possible without the ransom, why? why not? Did the kingdom exist before the ransom?

#6 Who are "they" (Abel? Abraham? David..) and when did "they" enter the kingdom?

#7 "enter "meaning ....?

#8 You refer to "eternal kingdom life" what do you mean and do you have scriptural support for This?

#4 He reigned over the enemy...

Luke 10:

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

#5 The kingdom existed before the ransom; see Hebrews 11.

#5 The "they" included the 72 disciples.

#6 They entered the kingdom as we do, by repentance and faith
, by being born of the Spirit.

#7 Become citizens of, and co-heirs with Christ.

#8 This term is probably ill-chosen by me. Can do better at times.

That's all this time.