God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[Checkpoint]

Okay, I'm a little bored today, so...

In the original post that started this thread, I posed four questions. Here they are, together with my brief answer to each one.

My comments added...

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

Perhaps not. But the usual version of what is considered to be "the truth about hell" often produces strong negative reactions. This could well be a sign that what we read or heard may be questionable.

I don't think I'd term this an "answer," really... All I would say -- and others even with different viewpoints would agree -- is that what can be known about hell is clearly shown in Scripture.

I don't think I'd term that as an answer either, really, Pinseeker... All would say that because, whatever view one takes, we all think it is the only one that "is clearly shown in Scripture".

So we go round in circles, just as we do on any contested reading or interpretation, or the conclusion we draw from such.

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

Because the common version of hell presents what God plans to do with all those who are not real believers. Thus it is portraying the character of God and an aspect of the good news that has extremely bad news.

I'd call the news that the God of all grace will remove sin and suffering (sorrow and sighing, as Isaiah puts it in chapter 35 of his prophecy) and will welcome all who repent and believe into eternal life and make them co-heirs of His kingdom with Christ -- and the eligibility of all to receive all these things despite abject unworthiness -- infinitely good news. In the negative sense, it is extremely good news that believers will not be subjected to God's wrath and judgment. Yes, this is the Gospel.

Indeed it is. Including to the unbelievers who are refused entry into eternal life with God. His wrath and judgment will be a display of His character and of who He is, both love and a consuming fire. What He will do will be in perfect justice for both saved and lost.

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

Because it makes God look like a fiend who puts humans into a future of endless torment; of anger and/or regret that never ceases. They will want to die but not be able to do so.

Hm. Well, to some, yes, it makes Him "look like a fiend," I agree, but this is mere opinion, and really prideful resentment and a weak stab at self-justification. What makes Him "look like a fiend" to some gives others quite the opposite reaction; it accentuates His holiness, His splendor, and his majesty. This is what the Word does, actually, it divides, just as Jesus said it does.

At any rate, God's uncompromising justice is certainly a fearful thing. That's true -- or should be, anyway -- for people on both sides of the fence. But God's perfect justice is an aspect of His love, actually. And like Paul says in Romans 1, unbelievers will have no excuse. They are the ones who -- even though God will have made plain to them what can be known about Him because He will have shown it to them (they do in fact know God) -- will have chosen not to honor Him as God or give thanks to Him. They will have willingly exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator. It's actually good news, Checkpoint, that He will give to all -- all -- exactly as they have chosen.

Absolutely.

Unbelievers have chosen, by not choosing God or His promise of eternal life, will not have either. They have chosen nothing of spiritual substance and will be nothing. They did not choose endless existence as sinners, in anger and or grief, and misery that can neither be satisfied nor ended, and neither has God planned it that way. Rather, they will get exactly what they have chosen.

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

All three.

Ah. Yes, but not all three always apply; it depends on who you're referring to, I think.

O.K.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

His blessings to you, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

NT (repeated post)

[PinSeeker]

NT (repeated post)

[PinSeeker]

My apologies to anyone for the repeated posts above. Don't know whether it was my computer or the website that was being difficult last night. One thing I am absolutely sure of is that it was not -- just couldn't be -- user error...

I don't think I'd term this an "answer," really... All I would say -- and others even with different viewpoints would agree -- is that what can be known about hell is clearly shown in Scripture.

I don't think I'd term that as an answer either, really, Pinseeker...

Well of course not; it's just a comment on your "answer." My goodness.

All would say that because, whatever view one takes, we all think it is the only one that "is clearly shown in Scripture".

Sure. My comment above stands.

So we go round in circles, just as we do on any contested reading or interpretation, or the conclusion we draw from such.

Maybe. In any case, though, the Bible -- God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) -- does not (do not) teach annihilation. Eternal life or God's wrath and fury -- discipline and judgment -- for eternity... these are the two alternatives. The way Jesus concludes the parable of the great final Judgment in Matthew 25:46 should be more than enough to convince anyone. Concerning those on His proverbial left, who remain under the curse of sin and death, he says, "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment -- not eternal nonexistence -- is the opposite of eternal life. And God executes that punishment from a position of and in perfect love, holiness, and glory.

Gods wrath in the Bible is never the capricious, self-indulgent, irritable, morally ignoble -- "fiendish," in your words -- sinful -- thing that human anger so often is. Everything God does is righteous and holy; He does not sin.

Gods wrath is His love in action against sin. God is love.

God does all things for his glory (1 John 4:8; Romans 11:36). He loves His glory above all, and that is a good thing. Therefore, God rules the world in such a way that brings himself maximum glory. This means that God must act justly and judge sin (i.e. respond with wrath), otherwise God would not be God. Gods love for His glory motivates his wrath against sin. Yes, Gods love for His own glory is a most sobering reality for many and not good news for sinners. It is after all, "a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (Hebrews 10:31).

Therefore, God's anger, wrath, fury, discipline, and even judgment, condemnation, vengeance, and punishment and damnation -- all of which are sinless, righteous, holy, and even loving -- are right and necessary reactions on His part to objective moral evil... each of these things magnifies His glory. Many who reject the idea of eternal damnation do so because they find it difficult to believe that a loving God could banish people to a place as horrific as hell for all eternity. However, Gods love does not negate His justice, His righteousness, or His holiness. Neither does His justice negate His love.

To contradict the Bibles teaching on hell is to say, essentially, "If I were God, I would not make hell like that." The problem with such a mindset is its inherent pride -- it smugly suggests that we can improve on Gods plan. However, we are not wiser than God; we are not more loving or more just.

It's a hard truth, but truth it is. And it's God's truth, not mine or anybody else's. I merely believe it and take Him at His word.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you all,

Instead of responding, I thought I would just link to the posts from previous exchanges (mostly with you, Pinseeker). I don't think anything new has been said, so the responses are all in the previous posts, for anyone new (or old) reading and interested. I hope Checkpoint does not mind the summary.

Original response:

viewtopic.php?p=999233#p999233

Different concepts (world of the dead; sheol/hades; outer darkness)

viewtopic.php?p=1000149#p1000149

Annihilation supported by what is written (and subsequent discussion on 'hell' - an eternity of conscious suffering - being both untrue and serving no purpose):

viewtopic.php?p=1000376#p1000376

viewtopic.php?p=1000526#p1000526

viewtopic.php?p=1000541#p1000541

viewtopic.php?p=1000557#p1000557

viewtopic.php?p=1002588#p1002588

viewtopic.php?p=1005237#p1005237

viewtopic.php?p=1005247#p1005247

viewtopic.php?p=1006985#p1006985

viewtopic.php?p=1007005#p1007005

viewtopic.php?p=1007050#p1007050

viewtopic.php?p=1007457#p1007457

viewtopic.php?p=1007658#p1007658

viewtopic.php?p=1007804#p1007804

viewtopic.php?p=1007827#p1007827

viewtopic.php?p=1007898#p1007898

viewtopic.php?p=1007907#p1007907

viewtopic.php?p=1007916#p1007916



Thousand years have not yet occurred:

viewtopic.php?p=1000380#p1000380


Some bits about Ecc 9:5

viewtopic.php?p=1008732#p1008732

viewtopic.php?p=1008817#p1008817




May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear and understand the truth of these matters from THE Truth (Christ Jaheshua). And may anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


(which water is holy spirit, poured out from the LIFE - Christ Jaheshua - as He received without end from His Father)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

...I thought I would just link to the posts from previous exchanges (mostly with you, Pinseeker).

Yes, my responses below in brief and in kind:

Original response:
Because it (the doctrine of eternal torture)...

Stop. There is no such thing as a "doctrine of eternal torture." This is demagoguery at its best... or worst, whichever is preferred.

...conflicts with the truth that God is love; it conflicts with the image Christ gave to us of His Father; it is illogical and unnecessary; it is terrifying (and did I mention unnecessary?).

While it is terrifying (or at least should be) to us as the created, it is both necessary and true to the truth that God is love (God's justice is an essential part of His love and negates his love in no way; the converse is also true) as said above. That some don't realize this has no bearing on the fact that it is true. And it is absolutely necessary that God punish the unrepentant -- maybe not to us, but that means nothing, really, as none of us is God. Which, as I said, is at least a big part of the problem -- in our pride, we can think, smugly, that we can improve on Gods plan, and that our definition of justice, love, etc. is what God should "live by," rather than the other way around.

Annihilation supported by what is written...

Well, only "annihilation" (in quotes) in the sense that unrepentant sinners are no longer with the repentant and redeemed. But exist -- and consciously -- they do. Jesus clearly teaches this via parable in Luke 16:19-31.

...and subsequent discussion on 'hell' - an eternity of conscious suffering - being both untrue and serving no purpose...

Not the case at all, but absolutely true -- Matthew 25 is crystal clear -- and its purpose is the glory of God, Who must act justly and judge sin (i.e. respond with wrath against sin) because He Himself requires it of Himself. Gods love for His glory motivates his wrath against sin, as said above.

Thousand years have not yet occurred...

Again, not so. The thousand years (the Millennium of Revelation 20) is synonymous with the "latter" or "last days" referred to by Micah (in chapter 4 of his prophecy) and other Old Testament prophets and clarified by the writer of Hebrews in chapter 1: "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son..." (vv.1-2)

Some bits about Ecc 9:5

The dead, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 refers to them, are those who in this life are dead in their sin. All of Ecclesiastes is about those who are still "under the sun," physically alive. It is possible to be spiritually dead -- while being physically alive; indeed, this is the natural state of man when he/she is born into this world and remains the case (Romans 5:12) unless and until he/she is born again (1 Peter 1) and made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5, Colossians 2:13, 1 Peter 3:18).

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear and understand the truth of these matters from THE Truth (Christ Jaheshua). And may anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"

That, we certainly can agree on.

...which water is holy spirit, poured out from the LIFE - Christ Jaheshua - as He received without end from His Father...

Well, THE Holy Spirit, Who was sent by the Father as Jesus had been before Him... but certainly existed with the Father and the Son from all eternity (and to all eternity).

Grace and peace to all.

[tam]

Peace to you Pinseeker,

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #416]

Like I said, there is nothing new to respond to here. Everything you just posted was already said (by you) and then responded to in this very thread, in the links provided. My responses are there. I simply posted a summary, but see no reason to go round and round on the exact same thread, with the exact same content.


I am content to let those posts stand as they are. Anyone can read through them if they wish.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[koko]

Stop. There is no such thing as a "doctrine of eternal torture." This is demagoguery at its best... or worst, whichever is preferred.


...conflicts with the truth that God is love

it is absolutely necessary that God punish the unrepentant -

'hell' - an eternity of conscious suffering - being both untrue and serving no purpose...


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear and understand the truth of these matters from THE Truth

Grace and peace to all.

I am not necessarily directing my reply to any one person here but making a general remark.

Like many, I am not entirely certain that what is called "hell" (and believed to be an eternal fire with sadistic demons tormenting people) is what is illustrated in the Bible. Such a phenomenon is inconsistent with the idea of a just and loving god. But then, life as it is known for many of us is also inconsistent with the idea of a loving god. I have mentioned on another thread that I have never known a day of good health in my entire life. Over the years I prayed for relief from all the misery that I've endured and there has not been any answer to the torment. Because of that I stopped going to churches, paying tithes, and praying since I do not believe in engaging in useless activity. None of that is my fault since I have been suffering such torments ever since I was born. While many insist that god punishes people because of sin, I am compelled to ask, what "sin" did I commit when I was a child? Obviously, the answer is none. Yet, I have been subject to life long torments. No, it's not self pity. Just fact. If it was you who did so you wouldn't be alive today.

There is no need for a "Gehenna" hellfire. Certainly not for me as life was bad enough.

[2timothy316]

Stop. There is no such thing as a "doctrine of eternal torture." This is demagoguery at its best... or worst, whichever is preferred.


...conflicts with the truth that God is love

it is absolutely necessary that God punish the unrepentant -

'hell' - an eternity of conscious suffering - being both untrue and serving no purpose...


May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear and understand the truth of these matters from THE Truth

Grace and peace to all.

I am not necessarily directing my reply to any one person here but making a general remark.

Like many, I am not entirely certain that what is called "hell" (and believed to be an eternal fire with sadistic demons tormenting people) is what is illustrated in the Bible. Such a phenomenon is inconsistent with the idea of a just and loving god. But then, life as it is known for many of us is also inconsistent with the idea of a loving god. I have mentioned on another thread that I have never known a day of good health in my entire life. Over the years I prayed for relief from all the misery that I've endured and there has not been any answer to the torment. Because of that I stopped going to churches, paying tithes, and praying since I do not believe in engaging in useless activity. None of that is my fault since I have been suffering such torments ever since I was born. While many insist that god punishes people because of sin, I am compelled to ask, what "sin" did I commit when I was a child? Obviously, the answer is none. Yet, I have been subject to life long torments. No, it's not self pity. Just fact. If it was you who did so you wouldn't be alive today.

There is no need for a "Gehenna" hellfire. Certainly not for me as life was bad enough.

Hello koko,
It is always upsetting and heart breaking to hear and see people go through physical issues for a long period of time. My step mother suffers from such issues with only a couple of days every few months that are, 'not as bad'. She has been dealing with this for decades.

This reminds me of John 9:1-3. "As he was passing along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. And his disciples asked him: "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, so that he was born blind?" Jesus answered: "Neither this man sinned nor his parents...""
So the answer to; "what "sin" did I commit when I was a child?" is that it is nothing you did as child and it was nothing your parents did.

So if what Jesus said in the Bible is true, where do you think the 'sin' or defects in your bodies that you and my step-mother are having to deal with came from?
The answer is found in Romans 5:12 "through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."
The 'sin' or defect started with Adam. He passed this on to his children and so on and so on. So that today we are still dealing with the affects of his decision to rebel against the One that gives life.

[PinSeeker]

Like many, I am not entirely certain that what is called "hell" (and believed to be an eternal fire with sadistic demons tormenting people) is what is illustrated in the Bible.

Those of us who do believe hell is a literal place -- most of us, anyway -- don't believe it is a literal eternal fire with sadistic demons tormenting people" at all. I along with several others have fully acknowledged that that is not what is illustrated at all. It is like a "fire" and surely is a torment -- figuratively speaking, their worm that will not die -- to those who are sent there. But there is no literal fire and there is no literal torture administered by anybody, much less God.

Such a phenomenon is inconsistent with the idea of a just and loving god.

See above.

But then, life as it is known for many of us is also inconsistent with the idea of a loving god. I have mentioned on another thread that I have never known a day of good health in my entire life. Over the years I prayed for relief from all the misery that I've endured and there has not been any answer to the torment.

Yes, I talked with you about this before. I too have suffered from some physical shortcomings. Probably not quite like you, but still, I understand what you are talking about. But can't God be blessing us despite our physical circumstance, whatever it may be? I would say yes.

Because of that I stopped going to churches, paying tithes, and praying since I do not believe in engaging in useless activity. None of that is my fault since I have been suffering such torments ever since I was born.

That's too bad (both that you've stopped seeking the Lord and have been suffering). It may seem useless at times, and I understand how that can seem to be the case, but it most assuredly is not.

While many insist that god punishes people because of sin, I am compelled to ask, what "sin" did I commit when I was a child? Obviously, the answer is none. Yet, I have been subject to life long torments. No, it's not self pity. Just fact. If it was you who did so you wouldn't be alive today. There is no need for a "Gehenna" hellfire. Certainly not for me as life was bad enough.

No, it's not "fact" at all. Life is hard in one way or another... or a thousand... God causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Matthew 5:45). But God has a purpose in everything, and He is with us even in the midst of trouble and suffering, working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:29), and one day, all sorrow and sighing will flee away (Isaiah 35:10), and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain (Revelation 21:4).

Grace and peace to you, koko.