JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pmDifflugia wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:26 pmYes. Luke 16:23 says that it is and in TD&D, the Bible is authoritative.
I can only wonder if you know what "
begging the question" means.
I was wondering the same about you.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pmJesus gave an illustration that spoke of death/hades as a place of torment ---> How do you know that the torment applies to literal death/hades? ---> Because Jesus have an illustration that spoke of hades as a place of torment.
To prove that the torment (and not some other aspect of literal death/hades) is what Jesus was drawing on you need present evidence external to the premise. In short, what* outside of the illustration itself, can you present as evidence.
Whether or not you understand question begging, you apparently don't understand how to ask questions. The question above is not the same one you asked earlier.
The earlier challenge was just to show within the context of Luke that "literal Hades is a place of torment." I offered a statement recorded in Luke saying that a person in Hades is in torment. It's
obvious, but it's not
circular.
As an illustrative example (a
parable, if you will), if you and I are standing in a quarry and you ask me to prove that there are rocks in the quarry, I might point to a rock. It's an obvious answer, but just because an answer is
obvious doesn't mean that it's
circular. You can then claim that my rock isn't actually a rock, but if you're right, my argument is still not circular, just mistaken. That
claim that it's not a rock, though, is something you'd have to support, like by pointing out some un-rocklike feature of my rock. Unfortunately for this last part of this argument, you've had real trouble supporting your claims and backtracked to claim that you weren't making any claims in the first place. You've still, though, only asked me if there are rocks in the quarry, I've still just shown you a rock, and you're trying very hard to challenge the evidential power of my rock without having to undertake the difficult task of explaining why my rock is somehow not a rock.
Now, if you'd like to make the claim that Luke 16:23 doesn't apply to real Hades, then you're free to do so. Your revised question above seems to imply such, but given your propensity for word games about what you did or didn't claim, I'm not going to infer it for you. You should probably support such an assertion, though, because I already supported my own that it
does apply to real Hades
here,
here,
here, and
here, which together answer your revised question above.
Edit: While I was replying, I missed that you added a
revised revised question:
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pmPOST #640
The million dollar question then is: what about literal real death/hades that was Jesus applying to the object in his illustration?
That hell is a place of conscious torment.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:27 pmPOST #645
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:46 pmThe "hades of his parable" was a place of torment. He made no statement as to whether "
literal Hades is a place of torment", what the properties of literal hades are and which, if any of those properties Jesus was alluding to,
is the question under discussion.
In the earlier posts quoted above, I supported that, leaving aside the one under discussion, the details of every other object in every other parable in the New Testament matches those of the literal objects in the real world. Without some really good reason, we should expect that the same is true for Lazarus and the rich man.