The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[William]

Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

[tam]

Peace to you,

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible one uses to do so.

Anything in the world can be backed by the bible, depending upon what one uses or ignores from the bible. So I'm not sure that this means anything at all.

I think that RightReason would agree with you in this, as she has used similar argument against your own position.

Yes, and?

I am going to point out that [3] is not backed by the bible though. Nothing in the bible states that we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing).

Nothing in the bible says that we don't either. So we can put that to one side as irrelevant.

No, that is 100% relevant to the argument that you are making. It is inconvenient for your argument. It disproves your argument. But it is not irrelevant.

I do not think you have ever provided something from that book to support this statement.

I have provided biblical script in other threads which altogether shows that this is the case. As I said, depending on what parts of the bible one uses to do so.
I will do the same in this thread. Indeed, I did so in post #4.

No you have not. Not once. Please note that the statement I am referring to is the statement that 'we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing).'

You have provided something from that book to support the fact that Christ had more things to teach.

Not just 'more' Tammy - far far in excess of what the bible records of Christ.

You're confusing your verses. Regardless, that is not support for the statement that we create our own 'afterlife' experience.

But that is not the same thing as providing something from the bible to support the statement that we create (knowingly or unknowingly) our own afterlife.

Considering how the bible came to be Tammy, it is not surprising is it?

So here you are conceding the point, yes? You have not provided something from the bible to support the statement that we create (knowingly or unknowingly) our own afterlife.

That should be the end of it.

You can believe whatever you want. But you cannot claim it is supported by the bible when it is not.

You do understand do you not - that Christ was big on explaining how beliefs shape our reality.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

No, He was big on telling His disciples that they would receive what they ask for in prayer, as long as they believed (had faith).

It also does not make sense that you say Christ taught 'hell' -

Matthew 13~40...
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

You chopped up the single statement that I made and are therefore missing the point. I don't care what you believe about what Christ taught: I am referring the senselessness of the entire thing. The full statement: It also does not make sense that you say Christ taught 'hell' - so that according to you, some will inevitably create 'hells' as their afterlife experience - and then the Creator provides much needed 'soul retrievers' to rescue those poor people from an 'afterlife experience' that they would never have had if it had never been taught in the first place.

Israel did not have a belief in hellish experiences as an afterlife; remember that Job longed to go to Sheol (the world of the dead) to escape his suffering?

That being said, the system you are proposing calls Christ a liar. That cannot be true (and it certainly contradicts what is written). Christ is the Truth, the One who came to bear witness to the truth. He does not lie, He does not deceive. If necessary, He could simply have said that the 'hellish experiences' that pagans believed are untrue. Simple-de-dimple. But you are claiming that not only did He not tell His disciples the truth, He actually lied to them (introducing or solidifying a false concept to them). That is wrong, William.

Never mind that Christ taught none of this, William...

Oh but he did Tammy.
John 8~38...
I speak that which I have seen with my Father:

Do you think Christ knew nothing of Astral Travel and the universes one can experience therein?
Is it not a way in which The Creator can show the Spirits within human form, things they would otherwise have no access to?

Do you see how you have avoided the actual point?

Christ did not teach a) that we create our own 'afterlife experience'; and b) that 'hellish experiences' are real (when He knew that they were not).

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

I don't think you have established this.

It is continually being established Tammy. You are against [3] and are either [1] or [2] or undecided on which aspects of [1] or [2] you believe in. Your arguments against [3] are because of [1]and/or[2] and the subsequent filters these positions give you in which to interpret the bible through.

My argument against [3] has nothing to do with [1] or [2]. My argument against [3] is as I have been saying for months (at least). Christ does not teach it. There is no reason to accept it. It is also not supported by what is written.

Even your arguments with Right Reason show this to be the case [as do her arguments with you]
And so it is with all Christians arguing against other Christians. And so it was back when Christ was on Earth. [Pharisees and Essenes and the Sadducees]

Yes, people disagree. People will disagree about what happens after we die until Christ returns. Those disagreements do not make [3] correct. Those disagreements do not make [3] out to be supported by the bible. Those disagreements do not make [3] into something Christ teaches. [3] fails on its own merits (or lack thereof).

That assumes a person has a preset belief by which they interpret the rest of the bible, rather than that they came to their understanding by some other means.

Yes. It is not a presumption though. Like the majority of theological writings, they are based upon the idea that life for the individual does not end with the death of their human form. The variances in beliefs are not about that particular belief...but about expectations the believer has, to do with the next phase. The bible exists because of theism, not the other way around.
Theism was a candle lit already and all subsequent writings about theological beliefs are a consequence of that.

None of what you just said shows that a person's belief in the afterlife (or next phase, or resurrection, or whatever) is what influences how they interpret the bible. I am going to suggest that you are projecting onto others what is true about yourself.

(I don't interpret the bible based upon a position (1, 2, or 3). I should not be interpreting to begin with (as I said to someone else, that would be hit and miss at best), but I do hold everything up to Christ, to His word and His teachings at the very least.

Of course we both [all] know that you are speaking about the bible as that which you 'hold everything up to Christ" right Tammy?

Wrong William. As has been explained to you on numerous occasions, in previous discussions. I have an entire thread devoted to the subject (which you spent some time on that thread).

You have yet to hold that book up to Christ, and are unlikely to do so while you continue to believe that the bible is the last stop say no more place in which Christ uses to teach us through and it is the bible which you call 'His Word".

I do not call the Bible "His Word" (nor have I ever claimed that the bible is the 'last stop') and I have been VERY clear about this (with you and everyone else). I'm pretty sure most everyone commenting on this thread knows that about me.

Even that you also acknowledge that the bible itself tells us plainly enough that Christ taught far more than the bible itself could ever hope to hold within its pages. So in that we know clearly enough there is far more of his word which has to be found elsewhere.
That place is within the individuals relationship with Christ. I know that you understand this idea Tammy, as you argue for it when Right Reason claims you cannot have a relationship with Christ without the mediator of the Catholic Church.

So until you are able to sort that contradiction, I am sure you won't mind if I place your statement to one side as being irrelevant an argument against my own position [3]

The contradiction is in your own misunderstanding (and misremembering) of the things I have said.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

I think [3] does oppose [1] and [2]. Especially if you were to flesh [1] and [2] out, where neither [1] or [2] accept that the resurrection (and all that comes with it) are 'self-created'.

You misunderstand Tammy.

I don't need a rehash of what you believe. My point is about your claim. If you were to flesh out [1] and [2], then [3] absolutely does oppose [1] and [2]. Just the fact that at least one of [1] or [2] states that some will cease to be is opposed by [3].

Though even if it were the best position, that might just mean it is the best of three false positions. And so what would that matter?

The best of 3 false positions is better than second or third.

Is it? False is false. If a person is satisfied with the lesser false position, that is their business.

I am not. Nor is that what Christ promises.


Peace again.

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #22]

No you have not. Not once. Please note that the statement I am referring to is the statement that 'we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing).'

Sure - I have never claimed that the actually statement word for word ['we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing).'] is in the bible. What I have claimed is that the bible has script within it which aligns with and can be interpreted to be in agreement with the overall position of [3] and I have used [and will continue to use] biblical script as evidence of this being the case.

You have gone off on a strawman tangent in order to prove that word for word "we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing)." is not in the bible, which is not what the OP is claiming.

The rest of your post follows that out of context path and as such, is besides the point I am actually making.

So please, do consider focusing on the points I am actually making, rather than pursuing this tactic, if indeed you want to discuss with me what I am actually pointing out.

[JehovahsWitness]

Who is left to be judged -- as all who have died no longer exist in any form?

WHO DOES GOD JUDGE AND WHEN?

2 TIMOTHY 4:1 NIV

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead ...

The bible speaks of Jesus "returning", not as a human but as a mighty spirit King to judge everyone on the earth. Those who he deems as sheep to continue living on this our planet earth and those he judges as "goats" to be destroyed, never to exist again (see Matthew 25: 23, 46). LEARN MORE Who are the sheep and the goats ? http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 4#p1005934

But what of the millions that'lived and died prior to this judegement? Many of whom never even head of Jesus? Some of whom say have performed wicked acts in ignorance ?

ACTS 24:15

.... there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

These resurrected ones are "The dead" ie people who had died over the centuries, brought back to life to join the "sheep"" and learn Gods standards.

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

If they "the (formerly) dead" submit to Jesus rule they too will be judged favorably and be permitted to live on, on earth forever. Those that do not will be destroyed (ie return to the grave of non-existence ) this time forever.




JW

To read more please go to other posts related to...

THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD, THE RESURRECTION and ... THE 144,000

[William]

[Replying to tam in post #22]

You do understand do you not - that Christ was big on explaining how beliefs shape our reality.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Mark 11:24
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

No, He was big on telling His disciples that they would receive what they ask for in prayer, as long as they believed (had faith).

And right there we have a great example of how biblical script is interpreted through the filters of beliefs individual already have. Your particular interpretation comes from either position [1] or [2] whichever of those two you lean most toward...and that is the truth Tammy, even if you choose to deny it as such.

[tam]

[Replying to tam in post #22]

No you have not. Not once. Please note that the statement I am referring to is the statement that 'we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing).'

Sure - I have never claimed that the actually statement word for word ['we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing).'] is in the bible. What I have claimed is that the bible has script within it which aligns with and can be interpreted to be in agreement with the overall position of [3] and I have used [and will continue to use] biblical script as evidence of this being the case.

You have gone off on a strawman tangent in order to prove that word for word "we create our own afterlife (knowing or unknowing)." is not in the bible, which is not what the OP is claiming.

The rest of your post follows that out of context path and as such, is besides the point I am actually making.

So please, do consider focusing on the points I am actually making, rather than pursuing this tactic, if indeed you want to discuss with me what I am actually pointing out.

Nah, it's all there William. Direct response to the OP. Direct response to the questions you asked, and to the points you made. No strawman (at least not from me). Nothing to add here, so I will just leave my post to stand.


Peace again to you.

[William]

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

Which biblical text or texts are you referring to when you state "the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?" It's rather difficult to answer a question that fails to include the text or texts it presumably references.


Tcg

Well since I stated that "lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions in which the bible can be used to defend all three." those arguments have been accompanied with various biblical quotes, which I am sure will be used in this thread by any who wish to participate.

As is clearly evident Tcg - the tread is unfolding as predicted. Christians in both [1]&[2] are naturally opposed. Christians who share [1] or [2] are still using biblical script in relation to arguing for details and differences...[1]&[2] therefore are beliefs which harbor contradictions and therefore are not great indicators of 'what is the truth' about afterlife [the next phase of experience] for the individual.

Yet [3] is still supported by biblical script regarding what occurs in relation to biblical script being able to be interpreted through various filters of belief, while "not all of them agreeing with each other."

Only position [3] is able to accept both other positions [1]&[2] and there various crossovers and departures as relevant to the believers beliefs, as something which can and will be experienced by said believer.

Those who hold either positions [1]or[2] and variations within those positions - cannot accept any other positions of belief as something which will truly happen. Only position [3] is able to do so, and without judgement. Just acceptance.

Position [3] simply states to theists, "Believe whatever you will, as it will come true for you".

[JehovahsWitness]

ORDER OF EVENTS


Those that died before Christs return, will be resurrected on earth, to eventually face judgement - See POST #23 above
viewtopic.php?p=1037889#p1037889

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

LEARN MORE : THE RESURRECTION viewtopic.php?p=963956#p963956

Christ himself died and was subsequently brought back to life. The first human in history to be resurrected in a SPIRIT BODY. "They that are Christ's" refers to born again spirit anointed Christians who will also be resurrected as spirit (not humans). LEARN MORE BORN AGAIN viewtopic.php?p=850455#p850455

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

born again spirit anointed Christians who are alive at the Second Coming will meet Jesus at the second coming in "the air" meaning they will die and instantly resurrected spirit bodies to join Christ in heaven :

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17) LEARN MORE "RAPTURE" viewtopic.php?p=917314#p917314

These born again spiritual bodied believers will then spend the thousand year Millennium ruling over the earth with Christ:

...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4) LEARN MORE : THE 144,000 viewtopic.php?p=1021864#p1021864

During that period there will be the aforementioned resurrected of all deemed worthy, who died prior to Christ return :

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:5)
LEARN MORE : MILLENIUM RESURRECTION viewtopic.php?p=872404#p872404

Those resurrected ones that learn and accept Kingdom rule will live on as subject on this our planet earth forever. (see post #12 : viewtopic.php?p=1037864#p1037864 ) Those that do not will be destroyed, cast into the symbolic "lake of fire" meaning perish for all eternity -- never to live again.






JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[William]

I will just leave my post to stand.

The image that comes to mind, re you standing post Tammy, is this;

[JehovahsWitness]

Thus [3] is the better choice...

Not for someone that view the bible as the source of religious truth. I could find nothing biblical in it.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

This sounds a bit like the teaching of "reincarnation" which has no basis in scripture.



JW



https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... ed-before/

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #17]

I would hazard a guess that while it appears you and JehovahsWitness share the same position [2] myth-one, there are aspects showing variation regarding said position [2] to which you have both yet to find alignment with.

All three of your choices are incorrect. Here they are, and why they are wrong:

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

A human person is not a spirit.

[2] A "Person" is a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

It's not God's decision anymore. He has already set the criteria for those who will be saved. He will grant everlasting spiritual life to whosoever believeth in Jesus as their Savior.

So each and every human will make an individual personal informed decision to believe or not believe in Jesus. God is pro-life, but He will honor either choice.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

A human person is not a spirit.

===================================================================

The bible speaks of Jesus "returning", not as a human but as a mighty spirit King to judge everyone on the earth.

There is absolutely no reason to judge any believer resurrected or changed at the Second Coming!

The thousand-year millennium will be spent resting, rejoicing, and apparently new member training, since these new spirits will judge angels and probably others following the second resurrection:

Know ye not that we shall judge angels?... (I Corinthians 6:3)

Not only will believers not face judgment, we will actually participate in the process.