You Are No Longer You!

[POI]

If God selects you into His Kingdom of Heaven, you are no longer you. Why?

1) You will no longer sin in Heaven, as Heaven is a sinless environment. Hence, you must have a portion of your freewill stripped from you (in some capacity).
2) You will not mourn for any of your loved ones, which do not also make it into Heaven; as Heaven has no mourning, as it is Heaven after all.

Which begs a follow up question....

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

[TRANSPONDER]

It seems to me that this was a very neat way of changing the subject.

I disagree. Firstly I am answering a direct question. If you feel the question is irrelevant you should point that out to POI who asked it, not to me for answering.

... even if I were to state, from the jump, that "all earthly humans, besides Jesus, are sinners". Or, whatever technical form you would find suitable, then WHAT?

Further, whether he knows it or not the answsr to the question is directly related to the OP. See above.
viewtopic.php?p=1047936#p1047936




JW

I cannot concur. It looked to me that you were jumping on a nitpick about one person who was sinless, which is irrelevant to the point that all the others are. And that led to a great digression. I will give you this - it could have been said 'Ok. One person wasn't' and got on with the point, but a derail resulted and we should get back on track.

My observation was to anyone who is reading and posting on the thread.

[TRANSPONDER]

Post by POI » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 pm

TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:48 pm
I suggest we don't let him get away with it. Even having to apologise and delete a paragraph is a win for him, if he has managed a derail from 'at least talking about humans and their getting into heaven. Reel him in.
Yes, I will no longer entertain the red herring

Cool. And you got back to the point or question of whether a person, having all the sinfulness taken out can still be themselves. It's a question. It's not a theist -stumper but it is a valid question. To be in perfect bliss (which is what I read Christians suggest is the lot of those getting into heaven, whatever our pal JW may believe) would, I'm inclined to think, require so much of the person's personality to be removed that there would be nothing of themselves left.

Frankly, for a long time now I have felt that I'd prefer oblivion to eternal life, and only dread of death would make anyone opt for immortality.

[TRANSPONDER]

How can anyone claim to be discussing the OP without defining the central terms therein: what makes you you?

Fact: The Bible states you are a sinner. By you, I mean you --> (JW).
Fact: This means you are unable to be without any sin.
Fact: If you were able to no longer sin at all, you would no longer be you; since you are a sinner.

Is this enough, or do we need to explore more?

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. Humans, (except Jesus), are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

I was thinking that was another question (Why doesn't God just save eveyone?) but t does seem relevant to topic. If to make a person fit for heaven requires burning out all the sin, or whatever way God does it, leaving little recognisable as humans to float through the celestial batwing doors, why can't that be done for everyone? It nags at me that sorting into saved and damned (and I wouldn't want to be responsible for placing the Cut) is not done because of conditions imposed by God, but as a punishment for some being the wrong kind of people.

[Purple Knight]

How can anyone claim to be discussing the OP without defining the central terms therein: what makes you you?

That's the question behind the question, isn't it? See below.

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena.

Doesn't it depend on the nature of the change? What if God said only pudgy people in Heaven and told you that you had to gain 20lbs? Or only bald people? Or only people with a third arm? So you gain the 20lbs, you lose your hair, or you grow an extra arm. You wouldn't say you were not you then, would you?

Some things, we say are our actual selves, and some we seem to think are incidental or don't matter. The question is, which things are which?

I'll give you an example question. I love cats but I'm terrified of cockroaches. If I wake up one day and love cockroaches but am now terrified of cats, am I still me?

I was thinking that was another question (Why doesn't God just save eveyone?) but it does seem relevant to topic. If to make a person fit for heaven requires burning out all the sin, or whatever way God does it, leaving little recognisable as humans to float through the celestial batwing doors, why can't that be done for everyone?

It probably can but since there's only one way to be perfect, only Tim gets into Heaven, and that makes sense. We could take Bob and make him into Tim, but that would just destroy Bob and create a second Tim.

It nags at me that sorting into saved and damned (and I wouldn't want to be responsible for placing the Cut) is not done because of conditions imposed by God, but as a punishment for some being the wrong kind of people.

Humans do this too. We ostracise people we don't like and force them away from our presence. If someone has the wrong ideas, for instance, if they believe in racism, they aren't allowed to keep their job or their friends or their place on social media. They go to a sort of human-made Hell they've ultimately put themselves in by being the kind of people no one else wants to be around. I actually don't know whether this is a good thing, but don't pretend you humans don't do the same thing God does, because you do.

[JehovahsWitness]

How can anyone claim to be discussing the OP without defining the central terms therein: what makes you you?

That's the question behind the question, isn't it? See below.

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena.

Doesn't it depend on the nature of the change?

- The first question [behind the question] is.... "what makes a person a person?"

- The second : which of those elements, if removed, mean the person is no longer a person. ie " the nature of the change"

Without answering these two questions it is impossible to say if any given action means "you are no longer you".





JW

[TRANSPONDER]

How can anyone claim to be discussing the OP without defining the central terms therein: what makes you you?

That's the question behind the question, isn't it? See below.

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena.

Doesn't it depend on the nature of the change? What if God said only pudgy people in Heaven and told you that you had to gain 20lbs? Or only bald people? Or only people with a third arm? So you gain the 20lbs, you lose your hair, or you grow an extra arm. You wouldn't say you were not you then, would you?

Some things, we say are our actual selves, and some we seem to think are incidental or don't matter. The question is, which things are which?

I'll give you an example question. I love cats but I'm terrified of cockroaches. If I wake up one day and love cockroaches but am now terrified of cats, am I still me?

I was thinking that was another question (Why doesn't God just save eveyone?) but it does seem relevant to topic. If to make a person fit for heaven requires burning out all the sin, or whatever way God does it, leaving little recognisable as humans to float through the celestial batwing doors, why can't that be done for everyone?

It probably can but since there's only one way to be perfect, only Tim gets into Heaven, and that makes sense. We could take Bob and make him into Tim, but that would just destroy Bob and create a second Tim.

It nags at me that sorting into saved and damned (and I wouldn't want to be responsible for placing the Cut) is not done because of conditions imposed by God, but as a punishment for some being the wrong kind of people.

Humans do this too. We ostracise people we don't like and force them away from our presence. If someone has the wrong ideas, for instance, if they believe in racism, they aren't allowed to keep their job or their friends or their place on social media. They go to a sort of human-made Hell they've ultimately put themselves in by being the kind of people no one else wants to be around. I actually don't know whether this is a good thing, but don't pretend you humans don't do the same thing God does, because you do.

Very good points.

In fact it just firms up my conviction that what God is supposed to do is just what humans do.

We in fact create god in our own image, and re- create if needed. That's why when Messianic Judaism got taken up by Paul and passed onto the Greeks, God had to change in His views, if not in nature.
However, not to digress, you raise some interesting points about personality. What makes this person me? In many ways I'm the same person I used to be, even though I've learned some things and have changed my mind about some things. Is it a question of memory? If you showed me photos of myself as a kid or even in my 20's but I couldn't remember more than ten years ago, I wouldn't have any identification with that person.

It's the mind and personality that counts, I think, even if it changes its' opinions on some things. My best mate was a Catholic and an evolution -sceptic but over the years he's dropped religion and wised up on evolution and...I'll have to ask him...he may be an agnostic or Deist at any rate if not an atheist.

Certainly if you changed my personality with my brother, I wouldn't be me, even if I was in my present body. It's the mind that counts. Which is why the Bod. doesn't matter. The mind (in the impalpable entity that human tradition calls the soul) is what goes to heaven, except that Christianity seems to think it gets given a new incorruptible body.

[Purple Knight]

Which of those elements, if removed, mean the person is no longer a person?

Transponder says it's the mind that counts, but I'm not sure. Do people with ludicrously high IQs keep them in Heaven? That would be weird if they did, right? The only logical answer that doesn't involve Earthly, worldly unfairness in Heaven (or anyone being stripped of anything) is that in Heaven, everyone just has infinite intellect. But wait... if it's the mind that counts, then this would mean they were changed into different people.

It's the mind and personality that counts, I think, even if it changes its' opinions on some things.

That would be an answer not a lot of people would disagree with. And it would add up to the debate question's answer being yes, since being a bad person is generally considered a part of one's personality. I tend to agree since I used to teach and I've seen a lot of little monsters who are apparently born little monsters. They start to hit before they can talk. Spanking parent, new age never-ever-punish parent, all the colours of the rainbow in-between, doesn't seem to matter for the few that are actually born bad apples.

But let's say I keep your personality as it is and instead swap your memories with your brother's memories. Your mind. Your personality. His memories. It's a difficult issue to disentangle when the mind has multiple aspects, and as JW points out, this is something that does have to be disentangled for us to even approach the thread question.

And I wonder, for some people, would a memory transplant be able to turn them from evil to good? Some bad apples aren't born, they're made. Some people are abused until it's all they know. I wonder if those memories then shaped their personality, and they would continue to abuse in return even though they can't fathom what they're returning, or whether the memory transplant would simply solve their problems.

[POI]

Without answering these two questions it is impossible to say if any given action means "you are no longer you".

I already started to answer in post #110. I left it open for some type of follow up; for which you completely skipped. But that's okay... Let's move forward....

Regardless, you seem to be quite hung up on this phrase. And yet, I've asked you, repeatedly, to answer the one and only question, which is tied to the end of the OP, for which you have ignored. You can answer the question, even if you do not agree with the statement "you are no longer you."

If you no longer can sin, and you no longer possess empathy for the unchosen - (whom may be tortured in hell for eternity), then at the VERY LEAST, "you are no longer the (old) you!" But the crux of the issue STILL stands. If such a change cannot happen, until after you die, then God can just apply this 'change' to everyone.

I again, press the one and only question to you, and hope that maybe this time, you will comply.

Whoever God chooses, He must change, in preparation for such a divine space/arena. (Besides Jesus), humans are deemed perpetual sinners. Thus, if God must change all, for whom He elects, why not just allow ALL into Heaven?

As I see it, this answer can follow two logical paths:

1. No, you remain the current 'you'. Meaning, you remain a sinner, and continue to possess empathy for the loved ones who will be tortured. But, when you enter into Heaven, all sin and empathetic thoughts are filtered/blocked by God -- (so Heaven can remain untainted and also completely blissful). Which means He can choose anyone anyways.

2. You are no longer a sinner and no longer empathize/mourn the loss of the unchosen. Which means He would have to change anyone He chooses anyways, so they are no longer sinners and no longer mourn.

Under 'classical/traditional' Christian doctrine, I cannot think of a third scenario...? Thus, which of the two does God employ upon His chosen peeps, after natural death?

[TRANSPONDER]

The way I see it, in Christian belief terms, the body 'you' are in doesn't matter. And your personality (people being born little monsters is based on instinct. It isn't hard to understand; it is harder to correct) being good or bad would seem to exhibit an inexplicable change if swapped for a different set of memories (or maybe not as I've known most people to be possessed of both good and bad instincts, innate or acquired). But that's an academic paradox, because there is no reason to suppose that ever happens.

So if your mind (or soul, whether or not provided with a new body) goes to heaven, that's you.

[JehovahsWitness]

Which of those elements, if removed, mean the person is no longer a person?

Transponder says it's the mind that counts, but I'm not sure.

Well at least its good to see he has approached the question. When a consensus is reached (or at least a premise is presented ) as to what makes a person a person there would at least be a basis upon which to examine the OP.

Enjoy,

JW