The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

The type of calendar doesn't matter. Both only count one year at a time. A person can use a Jewish calendar if they wish. The prophecy is counting the years from the destruction of Jerusalem from the Bible. Count the calendar years from that date using whatever calendar you wish.

I think the general consensus is that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BC and not the JW's 607 BC,

Then the Bible is wrong about the 70 years of capture of the Isrealites in Babylon. If you trust the 'general consensus' of the secular historians then the Jews where only in captivity for 40 years.
So which do you believe? Were the Israelites in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible says or not. Because both the Bible and secular historians agree that the Israelites were released in 537 BCE. So you're going to have to pick you think is right about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Bible or your historians.

The house of Israel was conquered by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered among the nations. As for Judah, the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem was around 586 BC, and the Temple dedication was around 516 BC. 586-516 is 70 years. There were several deportations of the Jews over a span of years. The pivotal point is the destruction of the Temple and the dedication of the new Temple. The interval of years depends on one's perspective. Choose whatever years you prefer, but Daniel 9 is about "anointing the most holy place". (Daniel 9:24)

We are not talking about the Assyrians. We are talking about the year of release of Israel from Babylon. What year was that?

[tam]

Peace to you,

What does that have to do with the fact that the JW religion (and/or its founders) DID teach something which gave jw's false expectations?

Who taught something which gave the Apostles false expectations?

Please allow me to rephrase, so that we are not mistaking the JW religion/religious leaders with Christ:

What does that have to do with the fact that the JW religion (and/or its founders) DID teach something FALSE which gave jws false expectations?



Or are you suggesting that the jw religion/religious leader/s taught nothing incorrect about 1914?



Peace again to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please allow me to rephrase, so that we are not mistaking the JW religion/religious leaders with Christ:

I don't think anyone is in danger of doing that so, there is no need to rephrase. Your point is as follows:

Any teaching that can be misunderstood or can lead to false expectations cannot originate with the true God. The teachers cannot have God spirit if their students have any false expectations.

Your above point is untenable since Jesus' teachings, especially about WHEN the kingdom would come, were initially misunderstood by his Apostles. This lead to false expectations. Unless you are suggesting Christ was of the Devil the fault cannot be laid at the feet of the teacher but with the imperfect perceptions of the students.

For the wicked generation of his day, Jesus condemned their unrealistic expectations because their hearts were bad. For his overeagre disciples he gently corrected them, because he knew their false expectations were not symtomatic of wickedness but of their eagreness to see his promises realised. In both cases his own teachings were at the origins of the expectations.

The early Witnesses are not to be condemned as wicked or lacking in holy spirit any more than the chosen Apostles were. They were not at the origins of the prophecies that they misunderstood, Christ was. Jesus was perfect but his listener were not.

As for the responsibility of Christian TEACHERS, they have the responsibility to base their teachings on scripture, there is no biblical basis for infallibility on their part: Please read Acts 18:26 and Mat 28:19.






JW




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[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

The type of calendar doesn't matter. Both only count one year at a time. A person can use a Jewish calendar if they wish. The prophecy is counting the years from the destruction of Jerusalem from the Bible. Count the calendar years from that date using whatever calendar you wish.

I think the general consensus is that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BC and not the JW's 607 BC,

Then the Bible is wrong about the 70 years of capture of the Isrealites in Babylon. If you trust the 'general consensus' of the secular historians then the Jews where only in captivity for 40 years.
So which do you believe? Were the Israelites in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible says or not. Because both the Bible and secular historians agree that the Israelites were released in 537 BCE. So you're going to have to pick you think is right about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Bible or your historians.

The house of Israel was conquered by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered among the nations. As for Judah, the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem was around 586 BC, and the Temple dedication was around 516 BC. 586-516 is 70 years. There were several deportations of the Jews over a span of years. The pivotal point is the destruction of the Temple and the dedication of the new Temple. The interval of years depends on one's perspective. Choose whatever years you prefer, but Daniel 9 is about "anointing the most holy place". (Daniel 9:24)

We are not talking about the Assyrians. We are talking about the year of release of Israel from Babylon. What year was that?

The house of Israel was captured in around 750 BC. Jerusalem was the home of Judah, not Israel, which is now scattered among the nations/gentiles (Ezekiel 36). Judah was part of the whole house of Israel, and is no longer united with Ephraim, the lost 10 tribes, who took upon the name of Israel from his father Joseph, who took on the name of Israel from his father Jacob. That is the crux of the coming kingdom of God, whereas Judah and Ephraim/Israel will be reunited (Ezekiel 36 & 37) under the kingship of David. With respect to the week (your source of the 2520) of Daniel 9, it has to do with the anointing of the most holy place (the Temple) (Daniel 9:24) and is not that some of Judah were being released. Many of Judah remained in Babylon and some remain until this day. The "7 times" of Leviticus 26:18 does not state 2520 years, or 2520 days, it states "7 times", as in the 7 beast who will inflict judgment on Israel, which included Judah at the time of Leviticus. And your 2520 years can only be attained if you use 360 days per year, and not 365 days per year. Your whole edifice is built on sand. As for your Julian/Gregorian calendar, both being Pontifex Maximus of the pagan church, Julius Caesar was the "beast" upon whom the "mark of the beast" still rules by means of his demon spirit (Revelation 16:13 & 17:11).

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

The type of calendar doesn't matter. Both only count one year at a time. A person can use a Jewish calendar if they wish. The prophecy is counting the years from the destruction of Jerusalem from the Bible. Count the calendar years from that date using whatever calendar you wish.

I think the general consensus is that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BC and not the JW's 607 BC,

Then the Bible is wrong about the 70 years of capture of the Isrealites in Babylon. If you trust the 'general consensus' of the secular historians then the Jews where only in captivity for 40 years.
So which do you believe? Were the Israelites in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible says or not. Because both the Bible and secular historians agree that the Israelites were released in 537 BCE. So you're going to have to pick you think is right about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Bible or your historians.

The house of Israel was conquered by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered among the nations. As for Judah, the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem was around 586 BC, and the Temple dedication was around 516 BC. 586-516 is 70 years. There were several deportations of the Jews over a span of years. The pivotal point is the destruction of the Temple and the dedication of the new Temple. The interval of years depends on one's perspective. Choose whatever years you prefer, but Daniel 9 is about "anointing the most holy place". (Daniel 9:24)

We are not talking about the Assyrians. We are talking about the year of release of Israel from Babylon. What year was that?

The house of Israel was captured in around 750 BC.

That is not the answer to my question. Look closely and perhaps try again to answer the question I asked. Because right now your presenting a strawman argument by giving responses to questions I didn't ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

The type of calendar doesn't matter. Both only count one year at a time. A person can use a Jewish calendar if they wish. The prophecy is counting the years from the destruction of Jerusalem from the Bible. Count the calendar years from that date using whatever calendar you wish.

I think the general consensus is that the destruction of Jerusalem was in 586 BC and not the JW's 607 BC,

Then the Bible is wrong about the 70 years of capture of the Isrealites in Babylon. If you trust the 'general consensus' of the secular historians then the Jews where only in captivity for 40 years.
So which do you believe? Were the Israelites in Babylon for 70 years as the Bible says or not. Because both the Bible and secular historians agree that the Israelites were released in 537 BCE. So you're going to have to pick you think is right about the destruction of Jerusalem, the Bible or your historians.

The house of Israel was conquered by Assyria around 750 BC and scattered among the nations. As for Judah, the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem was around 586 BC, and the Temple dedication was around 516 BC. 586-516 is 70 years. There were several deportations of the Jews over a span of years. The pivotal point is the destruction of the Temple and the dedication of the new Temple. The interval of years depends on one's perspective. Choose whatever years you prefer, but Daniel 9 is about "anointing the most holy place". (Daniel 9:24)

We are not talking about the Assyrians. We are talking about the year of release of Israel from Babylon. What year was that?

The house of Israel was captured in around 750 BC.

That is not the answer to my question. Look closely and perhaps try again to answer the question I asked. Because right now your presenting a strawman argument by giving responses to questions I didn't ask.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Israel was never captured by Nebuchadnezzar. It was Judah, the Jews, who were in their land of Judea, the home of Jerusalem, who were defeated by Nebuchadnezzar. Israel was defeated by Assyria around 750 BC. If you can't discern the difference between Israel and Judah, you will have a bigger problem in convincing the world how the JW kingdom was set up in the year 1914 AD. The destruction of Jerusalem is dated at around 586 BC. The dedication of the Temple was dated around 516 BC. The intervening time span is 70 years. The JWs are not in control over, nor have they crushed the nations as shown is necessary for the "kingdom" to be set up (Daniel 2:45). The 144,000 dead JWs remain in their graves and are not ruling from heaven, although I am not sure there were 144,000 dead JWs at the time of 1914. It was a religion in its infancy. I think only around 1500 died in Europe during WWI because they were JWs, which falls way short of 144,000. I suggest that you get out before the sky actually starts to fall (Revelation 16:21).

The JW Watchtower literature changes with the times to try and reflect reality versus their false predictions. Some examples shown below:

The current understanding is significantly different to the original teachings. Prior to 1914, the Watchtower believed:

The Last Days began 1799
Jesus Parousia (presence) started 1874
Jesus started ruling in heaven in 1878
The Gentile Times would end in 1914, resulting in the:
end of Armageddon
fall of false religion
end of all earthly governments
heavenly and earthly resurrections
paradise on earth
The 1914 doctrine has changed by necessity, and continued to change in the twenty first century, as it has been falsified by the progression of history. It has progressed from:

The last days started in 1799, ending in 1914.
The last days started in 1914, ending within a single lifetime/generation of those born prior to 1914.
The last days started in 1914, with an unspecified ending, after a period of an "overlapping generation."
https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/fail ... ctions.php

[tam]

Peace to you,

Please allow me to rephrase, so that we are not mistaking the JW religion/religious leaders with Christ:

I don't think anyone is in danger of doing that so, there is no need to rephrase. Your point is as follows:

No, the following is what you have twisted my point into being. It is not even remotely my point.

Any teaching that can be misunderstood or can lead to false expectations cannot originate with the true God. The teachers cannot have God spirit if their students have any false expectations.

Your above point is untenable

Of course its not my point. I expect that might be clear to everyone else, and perhaps even to you.

The members of the jw religion had false expectations because the religion and its leaders taught something false.


Christ did not teach anything false. The apostles did not go around teaching that Christ had established His Kingdom after all, but that only 'the faithful' could perceive it.

since Jesus' teachings, especially about WHEN the kingdom would come, were initially misunderstood by his Apostles.

See above.

Since the rest of your post is based on a strawman argument that I never once made, there is no need to address it.

And I mean, it was a simple question or two that I asked you. There was no need for this irrelevant side step back and forth, unless one is perhaps trying to sweep something back under the rug.



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

The members of the jw religion had false expectations because the religion and its leaders taught something false.

That point has been addressed in the post; I am confident you saw that since you must have read my post to the end.
viewtopic.php?p=1061567#p1061567

As for the responsibility of Christian TEACHERS, they have the responsibility to base their teachings on scripture, there is no biblical basis for infallibility on their part: Please read Acts 18:26 and Mat 28:19, 20.

If you have nothing new to say which has not been covered MANY times over in the pages of this forum (see below) I will wish you a very good evening.




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[tam]

Peace to you,

The members of the jw religion had false expectations because the religion and its leaders taught something false.

That point has been addressed in the post; I am confident you saw that since you must have read my post to the end.

I didn't see that actually. I read far enough to where you kept misrepresenting my point.

As to that point:

viewtopic.php?p=1061567#p1061567

As for the responsibility of Christian TEACHERS, they have the responsibility to base their teachings on scripture, there is no biblical basis for infallibility on their part: Please read Acts 18:26 and Mat 28:19.

I see nothing in Acts 18:26 or Matt 28:19 which supports your claim that Christian "Teachers" have the responsiblity to base their teachings on scripture, and I certainly never suggested that anyone (other than Christ) is infallible (see all previous posts). The two verses that you supplied:

He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (as a side note: the second part of that command states that the apostles were to teach all those disciples being baptized, to obey everything that Christ had commanded them, the apostles. Eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ is one such command, but the WTS teaches people NOT to do this. Something that goes directly to the topic of the 144 000. If a doctrine teaches people to disobey the commands of Christ, that doctrine MUST be false.)



I do, however, remember some words from Christ here on the matter of teachers:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matt 23:8

If you have nothing new to say which has not been covered MANY times over in the pages of this forum (see below) I will wish you a very good evening.

I thank you for your well wishes, and peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Yes it was actually verses 19 and 20, thank you for drawing that to my attention. Duly corrected.



JW