How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #651

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:08 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:00 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:04 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.
The record shows that just in this thread I provided you with multiple papers on speciation, Barbarian provided you papers on the Cambrian, and you did not reply to, comment on, or even acknowledge them. In message board terms, that constitutes ignoring them.

You may not like that, but that's your issue, not anyone else's.
No it does not Jose, what it constitutes is "not responding" a rather different thing to "ignoring".

I may or may not respond to any number of things and may have a reason or it might have simply passed by me in the to-and-fro of the discussion, but it is illogical and insulting for you to then judge that I have ignored them.
So you chose not to respond and we should see that differently then ignoring?

Mom: Son, did you take out the garbage?
Son: ...
Mom: Why are you ignoring me?
Son: I'm not ignoring you, I just chose to not respond.
Dad: Well that seem rather disingenuous.
Son: You know what, I'm going to ignore that... by not responding.
I will ignore any post that attacks a paraphrased argument, you are attacking a strawman not any argument of mine, you are attacking a phantom of you own making not any argument of mine.
Readers, do you feel that I attacked a paraphrased argument, or his words above in bold?

Sherlock, I do not post for your benefit. Readers will judge for themselves as to whether you come across as honest or not here in this thread.
Nice dodge though! I trust our readers will see right through it.
Yes you did indeed attack a phantom, I'm happy to assist and explain your error though.

You see I never said any of these:
Mom: Son, did you take out the garbage?
Son: ...
Mom: Why are you ignoring me?
Son: I'm not ignoring you, I just chose to not respond.
Dad: Well that seem rather disingenuous.
Son: You know what, I'm going to ignore that... by not responding.
You see we can all resort to such silliness, and then all you have is endless bickering and name calling and juvenility.

If you take issue with something I said then quote me, else find someone else to argue with.

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William
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #652

Post by William »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #650]

While I do agree with some things Sherlock say's, I have tried to engage with him on the evidence I present, and therein he shuns my invitations...most obviously because he is just another Christian trying to spread the word as he sees it, and what I have to offer may be seen [somewhat erroneously] to go against that grain.

Religious beliefs are a many-barbed growth wishing to own the rights on the mind behind creation - like a vine pointlessly attempting to strangle a sturdy tree - clinging and clutching - attempting to disguise the true nature of the tree through rampant spread...looks good from a distance but close up, seen for what it is...

It is the tactic I am in critique of - and I cringe because I naturally expect more from an actual Sherlock Holmes than what is being offered by the pretensive version.

*shrugs*.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #653

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:38 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #650]

While I do agree with some things Sherlock say's, I have tried to engage with him on the evidence I present, and therein he shuns my invitations
Please remind me of these invitations? I'm happy to either reply or explain.
William wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:38 pm ...most obviously because he is just another Christian trying to spread the word as he sees it, and what I have to offer may be seen [somewhat erroneously] to go against that grain.
That's ad hominem, talking about me, what you think I am, what you think I believe, what you think motivates me and so on, ad hominem.
William wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:38 pm Religious beliefs are a many-barbed growth wishing to own the rights on the mind behind creation - like a vine pointlessly attempting to strangle a sturdy tree - clinging and clutching - attempting to disguise the true nature of the tree through rampant spread...looks good from a distance but close up, seen for what it is...

It is the tactic I am in critique of - and I cringe because I naturally expect more from an actual Sherlock Holmes than what is being offered by the pretensive version.

*shrugs*.
And on and on it goes...

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #654

Post by William »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #653]
While I do agree with some things Sherlock say's, I have tried to engage with him on the evidence I present, and therein he shuns my invitations
Please remind me of these invitations? I'm happy to either reply or explain.
Rather than search for these posts, I will just wait for another opportunity and see then what you do.
...most obviously because he is just another Christian trying to spread the word as he sees it, and what I have to offer may be seen [somewhat erroneously] to go against that grain.
That's ad hominem, talking about me, what you think I am, what you think I believe, what you think motivates me and so on, ad hominem.

Are you saying that I have misread your posts?

It is still not ad hominem because I was critiquing a tactic rather than a person using a tactic.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #655

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

William wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:08 pm [Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #653]
While I do agree with some things Sherlock say's, I have tried to engage with him on the evidence I present, and therein he shuns my invitations
Please remind me of these invitations? I'm happy to either reply or explain.
Rather than search for these posts, I will just wait for another opportunity and see then what you do.
...most obviously because he is just another Christian trying to spread the word as he sees it, and what I have to offer may be seen [somewhat erroneously] to go against that grain.
That's ad hominem, talking about me, what you think I am, what you think I believe, what you think motivates me and so on, ad hominem.

Are you saying that I have misread your posts?

It is still not ad hominem because I was critiquing a tactic rather than a person using a tactic.
I'm at a loss to see what that post has to do with evolution.

Ignored for the reason I gave earlier in Post #41

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #656

Post by Bust Nak »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:53 am I'm at a loss to see what that post has to do with evolution.

Ignored for the reason I gave earlier in Post #41
You don't seem the least bit bothered by the apparent contradiction in telling people that you are "not responding" as opposed to "ignoring," and then stating out right a post is "ignored."

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #657

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:22 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:53 am I'm at a loss to see what that post has to do with evolution.

Ignored for the reason I gave earlier in Post #41
You don't seem the least bit bothered by the apparent contradiction in telling people that you are "not responding" as opposed to "ignoring," and then stating out right a post is "ignored."
Tough.

Each time someone posts their opinion of my beliefs, my motives, my biases and so on, that post has to be ignored, there's no other sensible choice for me.

As soon as I respond by disagreeing, challenging these attacks, the debate has begun to refocus onto me the person rather than the subject, this is utterly inappropriate in a supposed scientific debate too yet so many here don't care.

The posts should be about the subject - I mean seriously? is this really not understood here?

I'm happy to debate but I simply won't waste my time on these ridiculous playground tactics that only serve to show how weak some of the other participants' positions are.

So I'm done saying this, let's move on.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #658

Post by Bust Nak »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:41 am The posts should be about the subject - I mean seriously? is this really not understood here?
Well, I have to say that papers on speciation and the Cambrian period sound to me like they might be about the subject. But okay, lets move on. Do you have time to respond to what I said re: the influence human intelligence has on biology experiments?

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #659

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Bust Nak wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:07 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 9:41 am The posts should be about the subject - I mean seriously? is this really not understood here?
Well, I have to say that papers on speciation and the Cambrian period sound to me like they might be about the subject. But okay, lets move on. Do you have time to respond to what I said re: the influence human intelligence has on biology experiments?
I did promise I know, it is a great question too I expected it sooner but never mind.

Let me react now then by saying that I think we need to distinguish between what the experimental result actually is and what conclusions we think we can justifiably draw from the result.

Is the experiment being used to show that balls can sometimes just appear and fall from the sky? if it is then of course this experiment doesn't seem to support that conclusion, the experimenter contributed one of the things claimed by the experiment (the appearance of an elevated ball).

Is the experiment being used to show that an already existing ball grasped and raised and then released, falls; then I think we can draw that conclusion.

This is just my initial stab!

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #660

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #661]

Having glanced very briefly at the paper in question, the experimental results were that single cells evolve into cells that clustered together after 60 rounds of selection. The experiment is used to show that "key steps in this transition [between unicellular and multicellularity] could have occurred quickly." Sounds like a rather modest conclusion to me. This in turn was used by one of us here to show that evolutionary mechanisms can generate new cell types. Which still sound modest to me.

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