Is it reasonable to believe in God?

[historia]

Is it reasonable to believe in God?

Note, the question here is not whether you think it is true that God exists, but simply whether such a belief is reasonable or not.

[TRANSPONDER]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

NO IT DOES NOT

Isaiah 13:15-18
Wanton cruelty.

Isaiah 13:15-18
Not wanton cruelty.

Maybe 'wanton' is not quite the right word. It implies that it is done for no reason. The acts of cruelty in the bible are always done for reasons, but are they good reasons? The impartial critic has to say they are not. They are overkill, they are immoral and worst of all, they sometimes seem to be maliciously manipulative.

Of course you will reject this, but that doesn't matter. It isn#'y about maintaining YOUR Faith but about whether the reader will agree. Like I say, the impartial observer will see that aspect of the 'Problem of Evil' (God does not only not prevent evil, God Does evil) and that's why it is one of the two major reasons I hear cited for deconversion.

[brunumb]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

NO IT DOES NOT

Isaiah 13:15-18
Wanton cruelty.

Isaiah 13:15-18
Not wanton cruelty.

Maybe 'wanton' is not quite the right word. It implies that it is done for no reason. The acts of cruelty in the bible are always done for reasons, but are they good reasons?

What reason could be presented for necessarily doing this?
Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.

One can play word games when it comes to deciding if wanton is an appropriate description (I think it is), but any God condoning acts like that is a barbaric monster.

[TRANSPONDER]

At heart Christianity is all about love, and taking care of others (including plants, animals, the earth, and any aliens that may be out there).

One would have to do some very serious editing of the Bible to reach that conclusion. And not just of the O.T., the N.T. as well. Jesus reportedly made plenty of horrible statements about the destiny of those who refuse to follow him. Love? Far from it.

But beyond that, I'm not sure how this addresses the O.P. question.


Tcg

Not editing. Perhaps just better understanding.

As to the OP question, it was about the reasonableness of God. My point from the beginning has been that some notions of God are far more reasonable than others. And we'd be remiss to keep insisting on the tired, old ideas that we often do. Like the notion that God is the causal force behind all things. Much better to think of God in softer terms like love. Or what I said before, as Word, Spirit, etc.

You may not like the Word, but you cannot deny the Word exists. You go on to cite a whole lot of it.

I was going to say 'no' but then thought 'yes'. Better to think in terms like 'Love'. A human biological instinct. Shared by animals, as it happens. 'Word'? What the heck is 'Word' in the context? Faith? Also a human instinct. Spirit? The same. Better to think ion terms of human instinct plus reasoning, not an invisible entity that is supposedly looking out for us.

[Replying to theophile in post #49]

2. It gives atheists a fresh challenge in the form of next order 'Gods' and Christian thinking to debunk.

It is not the duty of atheists to "debunk" anything. If one comes up with a next order God and Christian thought, it is their duty to provide evidence such things are valid and actually exist. They'll also need to justify their rejection of the Bible's explanation of God which reveals that what is being describe is clearly a monster.


Tcg

Call it what you want man. Do you or do you not enjoy the intellectual stimulation of new ideas and debate? Nobody said anything about "duty".

I certainly enjoy it, though, sometimes it can be rather a chore answering a long screed of waffle or preaching that doesn't deserve it, but 'duty'. Apart from intellectual honesty in refuting wrong claims and arguments, one cannot allow the Other Side to walk off with an argument by filibuster, Gish gallop or just wearing the unbelievers out by volume of work, whether intentional or inadvertent as a result of over - enthusiasm and over -Faith.

It isn't common, or seemed not to be, to take my view of the Bible - that it couldn't be dismissed out of hand and demand that the Believers prove it. As they say: "If you don't trust the Bible, you cannot trust any other book". Good point. But we do not always trust 'Other Books', but we need a good reason to not trust them. Dismissing them just because we do not like what they say is not intellectually honest. There has to be good reason to dismiss them, in whole or in part. That is the "Duty". There has to be good reason not to trust the Bible. And Bible critics have a shedload of god reason not to trust it.

So much so that I say that now, the believers DO have the burden of proof of refuting the debunks. And the Duty of the unbelievers to refute the debunks, and it's a 'duty' that we discharge here. and yes, it is often fun.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

Isaiah 13:11-16
11 I will punish the world for its evil . . . .

The statement itself disproves your assertion; the punishment of evil is not cruel; quite the contrary, allowing evil to continue unchecked is both cruel and corrupt.

Maybe 'wanton' is not quite the right word. It implies that it is done for no reason ...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p952839

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viewtopic.php?p=978440#p978440

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viewtopic.php?p=1091422#p1091422

Is punishing evil wanton violence? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1091465#p1091465

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

BIBLICAL KILLING , WAR and ... VIOLENCE

[gobookmart]

Believing in God is one's personal choice but there is lot more logical reason why we believe in God. As they give us hope, belongingness and reason to things science can't explain. here are few links everyone should read.
https://gobookmart.com/ganesha-god-of-b ... mythology/
https://gobookmart.com/yama-yamraj-god- ... mythology/
https://gobookmart.com/bramhastra-astra ... mythology/

[Tcg]

At heart Christianity is all about love, and taking care of others (including plants, animals, the earth, and any aliens that may be out there).

One would have to do some very serious editing of the Bible to reach that conclusion. And not just of the O.T., the N.T. as well. Jesus reportedly made plenty of horrible statements about the destiny of those who refuse to follow him. Love? Far from it.

But beyond that, I'm not sure how this addresses the O.P. question.


Tcg

Not editing. Perhaps just better understanding.

As to the OP question, it was about the reasonableness of God. My point from the beginning has been that some notions of God are far more reasonable than others. And we'd be remiss to keep insisting on the tired, old ideas that we often do. Like the notion that God is the causal force behind all things. Much better to think of God in softer terms like love. Or what I said before, as Word, Spirit, etc.

You may not like the Word, but you cannot deny the Word exists. You go on to cite a whole lot of it.

I was going to say 'no' but then thought 'yes'. Better to think in terms like 'Love'. A human biological instinct. Shared by animals, as it happens. 'Word'? What the heck is 'Word' in the context? Faith? Also a human instinct. Spirit? The same. Better to think ion terms of human instinct plus reasoning, not an invisible entity that is supposedly looking out for us.

[Replying to theophile in post #49]

2. It gives atheists a fresh challenge in the form of next order 'Gods' and Christian thinking to debunk.

It is not the duty of atheists to "debunk" anything. If one comes up with a next order God and Christian thought, it is their duty to provide evidence such things are valid and actually exist. They'll also need to justify their rejection of the Bible's explanation of God which reveals that what is being describe is clearly a monster.


Tcg

Call it what you want man. Do you or do you not enjoy the intellectual stimulation of new ideas and debate? Nobody said anything about "duty".

I certainly enjoy it, though, sometimes it can be rather a chore answering a long screed of waffle or preaching that doesn't deserve it, but 'duty'. Apart from intellectual honesty in refuting wrong claims and arguments, one cannot allow the Other Side to walk off with an argument by filibuster, Gish gallop or just wearing the unbelievers out by volume of work, whether intentional or inadvertent as a result of over - enthusiasm and over -Faith.

It isn't common, or seemed not to be, to take my view of the Bible - that it couldn't be dismissed out of hand and demand that the Believers prove it. As they say: "If you don't trust the Bible, you cannot trust any other book". Good point. But we do not always trust 'Other Books', but we need a good reason to not trust them. Dismissing them just because we do not like what they say is not intellectually honest. There has to be good reason to dismiss them, in whole or in part. That is the "Duty". There has to be good reason not to trust the Bible. And Bible critics have a shedload of god reason not to trust it.

So much so that I say that now, the believers DO have the burden of proof of refuting the debunks. And the Duty of the unbelievers to refute the debunks, and it's a 'duty' that we discharge here. and yes, it is often fun.

Sure, it can be fun if something interesting is presented. Something that includes at least an attempt to provide evidence. When it is claimed that at heart Christianity is all about love, it doesn't take much to debunk as I displayed. It's like if someone claimed Quakers are warmongers. How much fun would there be in debunking that. What 'duty' would there be to debunk that claim. No need to call the fire department over a match that was never lit.


Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

Isaiah 13:11-16
11 I will punish the world for its evil . . . .

The statement itself disproves your assertion; the punishment of evil is not cruel; quite the contrary, allowing evil to continue unchecked is both cruel and corrupt.




JW
[/quote]

Poor call, JW It points up the evils of Biblegod rather than Just Retribution for the evils of others.

Believing in God is one's personal choice but there is lot more logical reason why we believe in God. As they give us hope, belongingness and reason to things science can't explain. here are few links everyone should read.
https://gobookmart.com/ganesha-god-of-b ... mythology/
https://gobookmart.com/yama-yamraj-god- ... mythology/
https://gobookmart.com/bramhastra-astra ... mythology/

That is not logic, but personal preference. In fact built -in bias, which is the antithesis of logic.

Rather one should give persuasive, evidence -based and logical reasons to believe, not just Feelgood. Give reason yoursel, here where we can see them, not links to videos or websites (especially booksellers) where we have to do the work making your case. You should make your case yourself.

[JehovahsWitness]

Believing in God is one's personal choice but there is lot more logical reason why we believe in God. As they give us hope, belongingness and reason to things science can't explain. here are few links everyone should read.
https://gobookmart.com/ganesha-god-of-b ... mythology/
https://gobookmart.com/yama-yamraj-god- ... mythology/
https://gobookmart.com/bramhastra-astra ... mythology/

Thank you gobookmart, a subtle reminder that I return to the OP and not continue to deraille the thread ; I agree that believing in God is one's personal choice.



JW

[Tcg]

Thank you gobookmart, a subtle reminder that I return to the OP and not continue to deraille the thread ; I agree that believing in God is one's personal choice.

JW

It's not. One cannot possibly believe that which they aren't convinced of. I've demonstrated this many times by asking theists to choose to believe God doesn't exist. None have even for a second or two done it. Of course, maybe they feared they'd die during that second or two and Ol 'Pascal would come to haunt them. In any case, it's not a choice in the way you imply here.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you gobookmart, a subtle reminder that I return to the OP and not continue to deraille the thread ; I agree that believing in God is one's personal choice.

JW

It's not. ....

What is not? One's personal choice? If it isn't one's personal choice to believe in God or not... whose choice is it?



JW



"Die Gedanken sind frei" (Thoughts are free) is a German song about freedom of thought.
viewtopic.php?p=816498#p816498

For further reading please go to other posts related to...

LOGIC , EVIDENCE and ... FAITH