The problem of evil

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The problem of evil

Post #1

Post by William »

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?
The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}
Last edited by William on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #191

Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to tam in post #190]
tam wrote:What makes you think there is any "Bright Morning Star" verse that refers to Satan?
I’m surprised you asked this. Many ancient cultures worshipped Venus (‘the Morning Star’) and you should at least know that Lucifer translates from the Greek as ‘light bringer’.

A few reference sources for you:

https://webpages.uidaho.edu/engl257/Bible/satan.htm

https://phys.org/news/2006-08-devil-pri ... d-ucla.amp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

There’s been plenty of muddle and confusion over the centuries about exactly what Satan/The Devil/Lucifer’s status and purpose within the Bible is exactly, but the idea of someone who appears to ‘rise brightly only to fall again’ is captured quite neatly by using the planet Venus as a metaphor. Before Galileo and Newton, equating the movement of apparent stars in the sky with gods or spirits was common practice. See the section, ‘
Planet Venus, Sumerian folklore, and fall from heaven motif’ in that last Wikipedia link.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #192

Post by tam »

Diagoras wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:16 pm [Replying to tam in post #190]
tam wrote:What makes you think there is any "Bright Morning Star" verse that refers to Satan?
I’m surprised you asked this. Many ancient cultures worshipped Venus (‘the Morning Star’) and you should at least know that Lucifer translates from the Greek as ‘light bringer’.

A few reference sources for you:

https://webpages.uidaho.edu/engl257/Bible/satan.htm

https://phys.org/news/2006-08-devil-pri ... d-ucla.amp

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

There’s been plenty of muddle and confusion over the centuries about exactly what Satan/The Devil/Lucifer’s status and purpose within the Bible is exactly, but the idea of someone who appears to ‘rise brightly only to fall again’ is captured quite neatly by using the planet Venus as a metaphor. Before Galileo and Newton, equating the movement of apparent stars in the sky with gods or spirits was common practice. See the section, ‘
Planet Venus, Sumerian folklore, and fall from heaven motif’ in that last Wikipedia link.
I know where it comes from Diagoras (peace to you), but thank you. That doesn't mean the tradition and doctrines are correct on applying that verse to Satan.


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Re: The problem of evil

Post #193

Post by Diagoras »

I’m not sure what your point is then? And why ask the question in the first place?

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #194

Post by oldbadger »

tam wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:52 pm Peace to you!

May I ask what deadly disease you are referring to? I ask because unfaithfulness against God (including idolatry) is likened to adultery. It is the unfaithfulness aspect, the betrayal, that is highlighted.
'Deadly disease' is a title and not one particular illness. Sickness caused by bacteria or virus can be transmitted through contact, or from consuming contaminated foods, etc.......... back then there were no easy cures for many sicknesses.
I have no doubts whatsoever that every single law for the Israelites was connected to the furtherance of a safe, secure, strong, successful, coalesced and healthy people. There isn't one law that does not further that.........
And to guard from sickness there were many food, drink, marriage and other laws. And to Sin caused Sickness.
The marriage laws were also written to further a fast growing, stronger people.

But, imo, the foundation of these laws got lost in the Christian, Islamic and Bahai interpretations. They were Practical Laws and not spiritual ones, I think.

But that's just how I see them.
I do bear witness to Christ, and I do invite people to come (to Him). For those who are seeking and/or interested.

I am here, right? As well as some other online 'cities' (where people are interested and/or seeking), and I can bear witness in person if the opportunity arises and/or if I am sent to someone in particular. One can bear witness to Christ 'quietly' as well (such as if my Lord sent me to feed someone - I can just to do that, give them food - physical food - without any kind of 'preaching' involved. In fact, when I was younger, I needed to go to a food bank for food, and a final condition to receiving any food was praying with the person who decided if you qualified or not. I didn't have a problem praying, myself, but this was forced. And if you didn't do it, you didn't eat. It felt SO wrong that they would make that a condition. Christ did not make that a condition of feeding the hungry).
Oh yes...... I often visit ''tea, biscuit 'n' chat'' meetings myself now. I do this because I like some people, and might hear even one small sentence that might further my researches about Jesus, and I always take a big pack of chocolate biscuits or cakes with me to support such groups. But some do try to pressure-preach at visitors, so I just tell them that I'm a deist but would like to stay if they wish. Once a very agitated lady host started to rant at me...she thought that deists meet under moonlight and engage in naughty experiences with each other...she thought I worshipped demons, and there was no tea nor biscuits for me there. :cry:

What I cannot do is "convert" anyone. "Conversion" (especially forced conversion) is a religious thing. It is not about God or bringing anyone to God. It is about man and religion, bringing more money and people to MAN (and their particular religion). God does not force anyone to believe in or exercise faith in Him. Doing something like that is not within my power nor desire (because people are free to choose). The most I could do is plant a seed. Other than that... no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them. (John 6:44-45)

Thank you!

Peace again to you and to your household!
That's cool, Tam.

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #195

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
Diagoras wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:41 pm I’m not sure what your point is then? And why ask the question in the first place?
William does not accept anything else that "christianity" says about Satan, so why is he accepting that that verse is about Satan?

I am not expecting you to answer that... the point/question was for William.



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Re: The problem of evil

Post #196

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
oldbadger wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:52 am
tam wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:52 pm Peace to you!

May I ask what deadly disease you are referring to? I ask because unfaithfulness against God (including idolatry) is likened to adultery. It is the unfaithfulness aspect, the betrayal, that is highlighted.
'Deadly disease' is a title and not one particular illness. Sickness caused by bacteria or virus can be transmitted through contact, or from consuming contaminated foods, etc.......... back then there were no easy cures for many sicknesses.
I have no doubts whatsoever that every single law for the Israelites was connected to the furtherance of a safe, secure, strong, successful, coalesced and healthy people. There isn't one law that does not further that.........
And to guard from sickness there were many food, drink, marriage and other laws. And to Sin caused Sickness.
The marriage laws were also written to further a fast growing, stronger people.

But, imo, the foundation of these laws got lost in the Christian, Islamic and Bahai interpretations. They were Practical Laws and not spiritual ones, I think.

But that's just how I see them.
I can agree that many laws were meant to keep them safe (as well as many actions that people find objectionable). But the law was also there as a tutor, to teach them, until Christ.

That being said, some laws were given - not because they were true from the beginning - but because their hearts were hard (such as the law permitting divorce, Matt 19:7-9, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hardness of heart, but it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you anyone who divorces his wife except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery."), and then there is the mishandling done by the lying pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8... "How can you say 'we are wise for we have the law of [the LORD]', when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?").
I do bear witness to Christ, and I do invite people to come (to Him). For those who are seeking and/or interested.

I am here, right? As well as some other online 'cities' (where people are interested and/or seeking), and I can bear witness in person if the opportunity arises and/or if I am sent to someone in particular. One can bear witness to Christ 'quietly' as well (such as if my Lord sent me to feed someone - I can just to do that, give them food - physical food - without any kind of 'preaching' involved. In fact, when I was younger, I needed to go to a food bank for food, and a final condition to receiving any food was praying with the person who decided if you qualified or not. I didn't have a problem praying, myself, but this was forced. And if you didn't do it, you didn't eat. It felt SO wrong that they would make that a condition. Christ did not make that a condition of feeding the hungry).
Oh yes...... I often visit ''tea, biscuit 'n' chat'' meetings myself now. I do this because I like some people, and might hear even one small sentence that might further my researches about Jesus, and I always take a big pack of chocolate biscuits or cakes with me to support such groups. But some do try to pressure-preach at visitors, so I just tell them that I'm a deist but would like to stay if they wish. Once a very agitated lady host started to rant at me...she thought that deists meet under moonlight and engage in naughty experiences with each other...she thought I worshipped demons, and there was no tea nor biscuits for me there. :cry:
I remember now reading your story on another thread :approve:


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Re: The problem of evil

Post #197

Post by William »

William: So far it appears that the "problem of evil" is an argument invented by folk who cannot entertain the idea that we exist within a creation - implying a creator - and thus implying a creator must have to be evil to have created this reality experience.
Said another way, there would not be "the problem of evil" if we do not exist within a creation - if there is no creator.
[Replying to tam in post #190]

Isn't that the point the folk arguing 'the problem of evil' are trying to make?
It appears to be the case, but it also appears to be the case that most are basing their argument re the bible God - which is to be expected hereabouts.
My opinion on that was given in post #69
Why is it 'judgment' when I do it (make a statement, even one backed up by the evidence), but 'discernment' when you do it?
What have I ever judged you guilty of? I am pointing out the "guilty by association" because YOU are the one making judgements against Christianity while using the NT which is a specific artifact of Christianity, to back up your particular beliefs.
My pointing that out is not judging you, but discerning the contradictions.
Jesus told his followers not to Judge [lest they be judged] and you claim to follow Jesus [even that you refer to the person by another name.]
You are accusing Christ of calling His Father a murderer.
Nope. I am attempting to source where the problem of evil derives. I never said any such thing, and if you want peace, it is best you apply honesty about what I actually said, in context.
You are accusing the writers of making that connection.
Nope. I listed a few possible reasons for why they wrote what they did.
You are accusing the Christianities of teaching false doctrines that have contributed to the 'problem of evil'.
Nope. That is your department. I don't agree or disagree that the Christianites are involved with false doctrine et al.

It only becomes something I have to look into , in order to find any truth therein, when folk like you make those accusations.
William: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.
Indeed.
This is a mirror-mirror effect.

For those among us hereabouts who refer to YHWH as a murderer and a liar and incompetent and lacking intelligence et al - due to the stories told of YHWH and the evil YHWH is said to have inflicted upon Humankind - acting the role of enemy of Humankind - they are in positions far from forgiving YHWH for commanding men trespass against others.
William you are the one claiming that Christ made those statement about His Father.
Nope. I am pointing out a known discontent among nontheists in their regard for YHWH due to the stories which have been attributed to YHWH.
I am making no claims.
William: Can you show any OT scripture which identifies that Satan is YHWH's enemy and was unaware that he is serving YHWH's agenda without realizing it?
No
So we can agree then, that Satan serves as YHWHs messenger in that capacity?
that is not a logical progression.
Then explain what is a "logical progression".
Why would I be arguing that God had no choice?
I know right.
But it looks that way since you have been arguing that YHWH had to create Adam and you wrote that for YHWH to NOT create Adam would have been to judge Adam for something Adam had not even chosen to do yet;
The suggestion that Christ was calling his own Father a murderer is absolutely absurd.
So you would have to agree that Jesus accepts that YHWH did command Abraham to murder Isaac and every other command attributed to YHWH re accusing and murdering folk, but that Jesus wanted Satan to take the blame for being the one who actually did the accusing and commanded the murdering?
The NT writers were not confused.
How can you know this? You hand-waved away their use of the hungry devouring lion analogy as somehow mere coincidence/nothing of note.
I am not confused.
Anyone who can turn a blind eye to the alleged actions of YHWH who accuses and orders murders, while at the same time thinks such actions are evil if done by Satan, seems confused, yes.
Especially when they cannot explain those contradictions, but appear to want me to believe there is no contradiction anyway.
YHWH knew that Job would remain faithful. Satan was the one proven wrong.
YHWH knew that Adam would NOT remain faithful. Yet YHWH created Adam anyway, and Satan was not required in the capacity of accuser [for YHWH did the accusing in that instance] but - according to some traditions, Satan was required to play the role of Tempter.

Under that tradition, without Satan, Adam could not have been tempted and shown to be unfaithful, unless YHWH did the tempting himself.

In showing this about Adam, YHWH was proven right. However, who was YHWH proving that to?

Re Job, Satan was again used to prove YHWH right.

Satan is obviously a device through which YHWH gets certain things done.
William: What is important is how Christianity built mythology re Satan and how you are using that mythology to make claims which cast a shadow of evil over Satan, which has the affect of staining the name of GOD - a blemish which created the problem of evil [as per the OPTopic]
That might be your opinion, but I can guarantee you that even if the Jewish perspective of Satan were presented, people would still be arguing the 'problem of evil', perhaps even more so.
Perhaps the problem of evil doesn't disappear simply by removing the Christian mythologies re Satan.

However, the mythologies of Satan wrought through Christianity and which I covered in post #101
point to the fact that Christianity remade Satan to suit their beliefs and distance YHWH from having anything to do with what is referred to as "evil".

The problem of evil may disappear if we remove the OT mythologies of YHWH which clearly associate YHWH with being commander in chief over the Hebrews Tribes and ordering murders and accusations against others, to suit their beliefs.
Evidence was presented that YHWH and Satan are not the same being.
Evidence presented shows that while they are presented as different entities, they are also presented as being alike in their behavior. Thus "the problem of evil".

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #198

Post by tam »

Peace again,
William wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:06 pm
Why is it 'judgment' when I do it (make a statement, even one backed up by the evidence), but 'discernment' when you do it?
What have I ever judged you guilty of?
In all of your response, I did not see an answer to the question I asked you. Could you try again?
You are accusing Christ of calling His Father a murderer.
Nope. I am attempting to source where the problem of evil derives. I never said any such thing, and if you want peace, it is best you apply honesty about what I actually said, in context.
You said:
Abraham believed that YHWH had told him to murder his son [human sacrifice] and therein the example of scripture you quote here, supports the observation that Jesus appears to be calling YHWH a murderer.
**

You claimed that this scriptures supports the observation that [Jesus] appears to be called His Father a murderer.

You are accusing the Christianities of teaching false doctrines that have contributed to the 'problem of evil'.
Nope. That is your department. I don't agree or disagree that the Christianites are involved with false doctrine et al.

This is what you said to me, regarding my statements about Satan:
On that count, I have no choice but to reject your reasoning as it is based upon falsified imagery. - William
viewtopic.php?p=1090647#p1090647

(false imagery that you claim were made by "the Christianities")
As I already showen, the information you DO have "about the adversary" has been falsified by The Christianities. What you say about Satan is based upon that imagery, whether one admits that or denies it. - William
viewtopic.php?p=1090655#p1090655

So it seems that you have made accusations against me as well as "the Christianities".
It only becomes something I have to look into , in order to find any truth therein, when folk like you make those accusations.
You made those accusations at the start of our discussion on this very thread.
William: Can you show any OT scripture which identifies that Satan is YHWH's enemy and was unaware that he is serving YHWH's agenda without realizing it?
No
So we can agree then, that Satan serves as YHWHs messenger in that capacity?
that is not a logical progression.
Then explain what is a "logical progression".
Now, I have no idea how you managed to mess up this quote box accidentally (bringing us around to the POSSIBILITY that you deliberately quote-mined me), but the above is not an accurate representation of what occurred in our conversation.


The suggestion that Christ was calling his own Father a murderer is absolutely absurd.
So you would have to agree that Jesus accepts that YHWH did command Abraham to murder Isaac and every other command attributed to YHWH re accusing and murdering folk, but that Jesus wanted Satan to take the blame for being the one who actually did the accusing and commanded the murdering?
No.

That doesn't even make sense. (and murder is your word, not mine)
The NT writers were not confused.
How can you know this? You hand-waved away their use of the hungry devouring lion analogy as somehow mere coincidence/nothing of note.
Yes.

But your objection shows that you are holding contradictory positions:

On the one hand you suggest that my statements about Satan (which are not confused) come from the NT... and on the other hand you appear to be suggesting that the NT writers were confused and thought that Satan and God might have been the same.

I am not confused.
Anyone who can turn a blind eye to the alleged actions of YHWH who accuses and orders murders, while at the same time thinks such actions are evil if done by Satan, seems confused, yes.
Again, murder is your word, not mine.

YHWH knew that Job would remain faithful. Satan was the one proven wrong.
YHWH knew that Adam would NOT remain faithful. Yet YHWH created Adam anyway, and Satan was not required in the capacity of accuser [for YHWH did the accusing in that instance] but - according to some traditions, Satan was required to play the role of Tempter.

Under that tradition, without Satan, Adam could not have been tempted and shown to be unfaithful, unless YHWH did the tempting himself.

In showing this about Adam, YHWH was proven right. However, who was YHWH proving that to?

Re Job, Satan was again used to prove YHWH right.

Satan is obviously a device through which YHWH gets certain things done.
I cannot argue other people's reasons for random traditions they hold.

But no one had made an accusation or a statement re: Adam, for someone to even need to be proven right or wrong in the first place.

Also, Satan tempts us with things that we ALREADY want, deceiving us into believing that we can (or should) have them. Eve already looked at that tree as something desirable to eat from. Satan deceived her into doubt what God had really said (Did God really say...), by telling her what she WANTED to hear. We are tempted (and then sin) by our OWN desires.

When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.


Doesn't seem like that NT writer was confused about God and Satan being on the same 'team'.

William: What is important is how Christianity built mythology re Satan and how you are using that mythology to make claims which cast a shadow of evil over Satan, which has the affect of staining the name of GOD - a blemish which created the problem of evil [as per the OPTopic]
That might be your opinion, but I can guarantee you that even if the Jewish perspective of Satan were presented, people would still be arguing the 'problem of evil', perhaps even more so.
Perhaps the problem of evil doesn't disappear simply by removing the Christian mythologies re Satan.
Correct.

There is no reason to suggest that would happen at all. Even the Jewish perspective holds that there is good and evil.

Your solution appears to suggest that there is no such thing as evil (or bad/wicked). But if that is the case, then why are you spending so much time trying to argue about God being perceived as evil (for whatever reason)? Why not simply argue instead that there is no such thing as evil?

I don't agree that there is no such thing as evil/bad/wicked, but I don't know why you don't spend more time on your own beliefs rather than blaming someone else's?

However, the mythologies of Satan wrought through Christianity and which I covered in post #101
point to the fact that Christianity remade Satan to suit their beliefs and distance YHWH from having anything to do with what is referred to as "evil".
Nothing about that is a fact William.
The problem of evil may disappear if we remove the OT mythologies of YHWH which clearly associate YHWH with being commander in chief over the Hebrews Tribes and ordering murders and accusations against others, to suit their beliefs.
Or we could address the incorrect things being said ABOUT the God and Father of Christ, which is in fact one of the things that Christ came to do in bearing witness to the Truth, in revealing His Father as His Father TRULY is, in making His Father known.

All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.



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Re: The problem of evil

Post #199

Post by William »

William: The problem of evil may disappear if we remove the OT mythologies of YHWH which clearly associate YHWH with being commander in chief over the Hebrews Tribes and ordering murders and accusations against others, to suit their beliefs.

[Replying to tam in post #198]
Or we could address the incorrect things being said ABOUT the God and Father of Christ, which is in fact one of the things that Christ came to do in bearing witness to the Truth, in revealing His Father as His Father TRULY is, in making His Father known.

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?

[The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}]

Where are you on the OPQ Tam?

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Re: The problem of evil

Post #200

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:29 pm William: The problem of evil may disappear if we remove the OT mythologies of YHWH which clearly associate YHWH with being commander in chief over the Hebrews Tribes and ordering murders and accusations against others, to suit their beliefs.

[Replying to tam in post #198]
Or we could address the incorrect things being said ABOUT the God and Father of Christ, which is in fact one of the things that Christ came to do in bearing witness to the Truth, in revealing His Father as His Father TRULY is, in making His Father known.

Q: Is the statement "Then there is "The problem of evil"" one of fact or conjecture? [science or opinion] In realty, does such a problem actually exist?

[The problem of evil refers to the challenge of reconciling belief in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and omniscient God, with the existence of evil and suffering in the world. eta:{SOURCE}]

Where are you on the OPQ Tam?
Sounds more like a question than a problem to me. "Why/how does evil and suffering exist in the world IF..."
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