How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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otseng
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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Athetotheist
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2801

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #0
It's ridiculous if it's an artwork from 1350 that nobody now would be able to fully duplicate it. But, if it is legit, it makes sense.
Just because we don't initially understand how something happens doesn't mean that it can't be explained.

"Divers in the Netherlands explored the wreck of a ship from the 1600s back in 2014, but revealed one of the unique finds in 2016: a fantastically preserved silk dress that somehow survived the ravages of both time and water."

https://www.cnet.com/pictures/ancient-m ... -pictures/

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2802

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:53 am Bas-relief imaging does explain it.
I don't recall you addressing concerns about bas-relief in this post:
viewtopic.php?p=1124427#p1124427

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2803

Post by otseng »

Waterfall wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 12:19 pm I do not understand why it has taken so long time for someone to notice the image? Did they not notice it back then - 2000 years ago? Was it not worth writting about? Why keep the cloth? Because there was an image nobody had notice? If nobody had notice it why then keep it? What would be the point...
I believe there are allusions to the shroud post resurrection in the Bible. I can get to that later.

People have noticed it throughout history, but it has been a limited number of people and in certain locations. What is even more surprising to me is very people now know about the shroud. We are a globally interconnected world with instantaneous communication, but few people, even Christians, know about the shroud.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2804

Post by otseng »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:14 pm I've not sid the shroud is a fake. I've said that without confirmatory data, we don't know who the image represents.
If it's not a fake, then obviously the only other alternative is it is authentic. If you don't believe it's authentic or a fake, then what else can it be?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2805

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 5:21 pm Just because we don't initially understand how something happens doesn't mean that it can't be explained.
That is why the shroud has been written up in so many scientific studies, to try to explain the mysteries of the shroud. Yet the cloth remains a complete enigma. I predict we will be studying the shroud forever and still not fully understand it.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2806

Post by otseng »

Why would there be few direct references, either textual or art, to the shroud in the first few centuries? Why is the post resurrection shroud not explicitly mentioned in the Bible?
Several reasons why there are no direct references to what happened to the burial cloths:

1. Among the Jews, articles associated with the dead were unclean – even stepping on a tomb
without realizing it required ritual purification. Burial shrouds would therefore not generally be
handled or displayed.

2. The Jewish authorities very much wanted to conceal the fact that Jesus’ body had disappeared, and
they paid the guards of the tomb to lie about what had happened (Matthew 28:11-15). The Roman
authorities would also not want any evidence that Jesus had escaped from the crucifixion that they
had performed. So if the existence of such an object became known, it would probably have been
seized and destroyed by either the Jews or the Romans.

3. Extreme suffering in those times was considered to be the judgement of God, whereas wealth,
military might, and power were typically viewed as marks of God’s approval. A good example is
the book of Job, possibly the oldest in the Bible, in which Job suffers a series of calamities and
winds up sitting in ashes and scaping his boils. His friends could not understand how a wealthy
and upright man as he had been could ever experience such disaster – when bad things happened
to you it had to mean that God was against you. Therefore, people could easily have wondered
how attractive Christianity could be when its founder, the son of God, was displayed as dying in
such a humiliating and gruesome manner. A different mindset was required for the Christian
message to be understood and appreciated.

4. Related to the previous item is the issue of oriental sensitivity. Christ as depicted on the Shroud is
brutally beaten, wounded, and dead. He is also naked, and all of these characteristics were not just
disagreeable to the society of that era, they were abhorrent, especially to spiritual and ascetic
minds of that time. Even after understanding the message that Christ had suffered and died for the
sins of humanity, it was another matter to reveal the grisly details.

Now on the Shroud the effects of Christ’s crucifixion are visible in all their stark reality, more vivid and more appalling than in any artistic work .... It is reasonable, therefore, to suppose that the Shroud was kept more or less hidden for centuries and a prudent silence observed about its imprint... Those who imagine that the guardians of the Shroud should have gone about waving it like a banner show little understanding of the Christian Orient (Humber 1978: 91).
https://biblearchaeology.org/the-shroud ... great-city

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2807

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2802
I don't recall you addressing concerns about bas-relief in this post:
Let's do a simple thought experiment. Press a cloth against the entire surface of a face on a bas-relief, and then you put a dot at the center of each eye. Then flatten the cloth and measure the distance between the eyes - distance E1. Now take a ruler and place it over the bas-relief and measure the distance between the eyes - distance E2. E1 would be longer than E2 because the cloth would not be straight when pressed against the face, but would go up and down to conform to the eye socket and the bridge of nose. This distance discrepancy would be true for any two distance between the face that involves curvature of the face. These distance differences would result in facial distortions.
That was your response to something I pointed out:

"We do see the face on the Turin cloth pressed flat and it has none of the side-of-head distortion it should have if it surrounded a body."

This is in addition to the absence of image at the top of the head, which you can resolve only by proposing that the body dematerialized in some conveniently stylized way.

I don't recall you addressing this challenge to your "angle encoding" claim:

"Stand a flat object perpendicular to the floor, lie supine with the top of your head touching the object and measure the area of your head covered by the vertical surface."

I'm guessing that this would produce a lot bigger difference than a bas-relief image spread flat.

"Among the Jews, articles associated with the dead were unclean – even stepping on a tomb
without realizing it required ritual purification. Burial shrouds would therefore not generally be
handled or displayed."
That throws into question the story of the women going to the tomb to annoint the body.

"The Jewish authorities very much wanted to conceal the fact that Jesus’ body had disappeared, and
they paid the guards of the tomb to lie about what had happened (Matthew 28:11-15)."
Here again is the outlandish story----told ONLY by Matthew----of an entire detail of Roman soldiers being bribed by Jewish leaders, upon whom they looked with utter contempt, to tell their commander that they all fell asleep, which would have incurred the death penalty regardless of any promise made by the Jews.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2808

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Late edit for clarity...
otseng wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:51 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:14 pm I've not sid the shroud is a fake. I've said that without confirmatory data, we don't know who the image represents.
If it's not a fake, then obviously the only other alternative is it is authentic. If you don't believe it's authentic or a fake, then what else can it be?
You're thinking too dichotomously.

The shroud is the purported burial cloth of biblical Jesus, with all his attributes and talked abouts. It can't be confirmed as the image of Jesus on the y chromosome issue alone.

But if we dismiss that death dealing blow, we're left with no comparative image or blood samples.

Our best, most charitable, most rational conclusion is the image has not been shown to confirm such a contention, nor assorted claims about it.
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2809

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 5:31 pm "We do see the face on the Turin cloth pressed flat and it has none of the side-of-head distortion it should have if it surrounded a body."
Not sure what you're claiming. The TS has none of the distortion that a bas-belief would have if the cloth was completely pressed against the sculpture. So this is evidence bas-relief could not have been done. The only explanation for lack of facial distortion is somehow there is a linear projection from the cloth to the face in the image formation process. Either radiation from the face to the cloth happened (proto-photography or vertically collimated radiation) or the cloth vertically went to the face (cloth collapse).

If it was a bas-relief, then we would see severe image distortions.
McCrone's technique was modified by Nickell, who applied solid iron oxide to linen by
rubbing over a bas relief. However, the amount of three dimensional information
produced by this method was substantially limited by the inherent qualities of bas relief
sculpture. In addition, image distortion was introduced as a fabric draped over a three-
dimensional sculpture was removed and flattened to two dimensions.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/craig.pdf
This is in addition to the absence of image at the top of the head, which you can resolve only by proposing that the body dematerialized in some conveniently stylized way.
Having something dematerialize in a MRI/CRT like fashion is not unreasonable. As a matter of fact, if we were to invent some sort of teleportation device, most likely it would follow this principle. If we were to design a teleporter, if an object was not teleported by layers, what other way would it be done?
"Stand a flat object perpendicular to the floor, lie supine with the top of your head touching the object and measure the area of your head covered by the vertical surface."
More than angle encoding would be happening at the top of the head. If the body was dematerialized by layers, the cloth at the top of the head would have experienced less inward force than the cloth parallel to the plane of the body, so there would be less interaction of the cloth with the dematerializing body.

And even though there is lack of imaging at the top of head, the dimensions aligns with the cloth wrapping around the top of the head.
"Among the Jews, articles associated with the dead were unclean – even stepping on a tomb
without realizing it required ritual purification. Burial shrouds would therefore not generally be
handled or displayed."
That throws into question the story of the women going to the tomb to annoint the body.
They came because the burial process was not completed because of the sabbath. Afterwards they came back to complete it.

[Luk 23:56 KJV] And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
[Luk 24:1 KJV]Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.
"The Jewish authorities very much wanted to conceal the fact that Jesus’ body had disappeared, and
they paid the guards of the tomb to lie about what had happened (Matthew 28:11-15)."
Here again is the outlandish story----told ONLY by Matthew----of an entire detail of Roman soldiers being bribed by Jewish leaders, upon whom they looked with utter contempt, to tell their commander that they all fell asleep, which would have incurred the death penalty regardless of any promise made by the Jews.
I agree it's an outlandish story. And really this is evidence the guards did not fall asleep.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2810

Post by otseng »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:15 pm Late edit for clarity...
otseng wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 6:51 am
JoeyKnothead wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:14 pm I've not sid the shroud is a fake. I've said that without confirmatory data, we don't know who the image represents.
If it's not a fake, then obviously the only other alternative is it is authentic. If you don't believe it's authentic or a fake, then what else can it be?
You're thinking too dichotomously.
That's why I asked you - "If you don't believe it's authentic or a fake, then what else can it be?" You must have some third option if you don't accept either of these. The shroud is sitting in a box in Turin, Italy and has been studied by many scientists. It is not some mythical object. There's got to be some explanation to its origin.

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