Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[onewithhim]

Can you prove with scripture that the Father ever subjects Himself to the Son?

Well, the Bible in the NEW TESTAMENT clearly says that CHRIST created everything that was created. That sounds like the FATHER took a sort of backseat to the creativity of the SON. But again, THEY are one. And so what ONE does THEY all do and accomplish. That is what GOD is all about.

That says nothing about subjection, ie putting oneself under the Authority of another. Do you have any scripture that explicitly states that the Father will subject himself to the Son. Scripture please.

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.
This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST's being subjected so that the FATHER maybe totally magnified. They are mutually dependent! and inseparable.

No, just the opposite. It clearly says that all things will be subjected with the exception of the Father, God, who subjected all things to Christ. They are separable. We see that because Christ subjects himself to God and hands Him back the kingdom, and aims to have the Father be all things to everyone, not himself as being all things, they are two individuals that act independently. Remember Christ said that he was here to do God's will and not his own will. (John 5:30)

[LittleNipper]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

[LittleNipper]

Can you prove with scripture that the Father ever subjects Himself to the Son?

Well, the Bible in the NEW TESTAMENT clearly says that CHRIST created everything that was created. That sounds like the FATHER took a sort of backseat to the creativity of the SON. But again, THEY are one. And so what ONE does THEY all do and accomplish. That is what GOD is all about.

That says nothing about subjection, ie putting oneself under the Authority of another. Do you have any scripture that explicitly states that the Father will subject himself to the Son. Scripture please.

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.
This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST's being subjected so that the FATHER maybe totally magnified. They are mutually dependent! and inseparable.

No, just the opposite. It clearly says that all things will be subjected with the exception of the Father, God, who subjected all things to Christ. They are separable. We see that because Christ subjects himself to God and hands Him back the kingdom, and aims to have the Father be all things to everyone, not himself as being all things, they are two individuals that act independently. Remember Christ said that he was here to do God's will and not his own will. (John 5:30)

You may wish to believe what you say, but clearly the Bible states over an over that THEY ARE ONE. One cannot be ONE and separate. They act together and not separately.

[JehovahsWitness]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

The ONE is the FATHER of course. ...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:27

For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’+ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him

.






Okay so we have an explicit statement that the SON submits to THE FATHER. So we can say, while in heaven the Son is said to recognise the superior authority of the Father.

Do we have an explicit statement of the Father submitting to anyone or anything?

[JehovahsWitness]

WHEN THE FATHER GAVE HIS SON AUTHORITY OVER "EVERYTHING", DID THAT INCLUDE HIMSELF?

1 Corinthians 15:28

... the ONE who subjected everything to [Christ] .

Let's look at this part again. Christ did not always have this "everything" , the verse said The One [The FATHER] put everything under [subject to] the authority of the Son (compare Math 28:19)

Did the Father give his Son his own supreme power?


Notice the verse doesn't say: The ONE who made "most things subject and one thing EQUAL" - it said everything was made subject. The Father's authority is identified as THE HIGHEST ; There exists no authority over that which is the highest. If the "everything" Paul referred to included the supremecy of the "Most High" then Christ would be over (or higher than ) the highest. Or to put it another way, the "Most high" authority would have someone higher - which is a logical impossibility.

CONCLUSION : When The FATHER made everything SUBJECT to Christ it must have been everything except His own supreme authority, which by definition cannot be subject to anyone.

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

THE DIVINE NAME , JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[onewithhim]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

It also says that it is with the exception of the One who placed all things under the Son's feet (I
Corinth. 15:27), so yes, there is room for exceptions.

Then---"when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth. 15:28)

I think these verses explain themselves. There is room for exceptions, AND Christ will always be in subjection to God, the Father.

[onewithhim]

Can you prove with scripture that the Father ever subjects Himself to the Son?

Well, the Bible in the NEW TESTAMENT clearly says that CHRIST created everything that was created. That sounds like the FATHER took a sort of backseat to the creativity of the SON. But again, THEY are one. And so what ONE does THEY all do and accomplish. That is what GOD is all about.

That says nothing about subjection, ie putting oneself under the Authority of another. Do you have any scripture that explicitly states that the Father will subject himself to the Son. Scripture please.

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.
This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST's being subjected so that the FATHER maybe totally magnified. They are mutually dependent! and inseparable.

No, just the opposite. It clearly says that all things will be subjected with the exception of the Father, God, who subjected all things to Christ. They are separable. We see that because Christ subjects himself to God and hands Him back the kingdom, and aims to have the Father be all things to everyone, not himself as being all things, they are two individuals that act independently. Remember Christ said that he was here to do God's will and not his own will. (John 5:30)

You may wish to believe what you say, but clearly the Bible states over an over that THEY ARE ONE. One cannot be ONE and separate. They act together and not separately.

You fail to recognize what "one" actually means. John 17:20-23 shows that the Father and Jesus are "one" just as the disciples would be "one" with them. If to be one with God means that you are God, then the disciples are also God.

[LittleNipper]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

It also says that it is with the exception of the One who placed all things under the Son's feet (I
Corinth. 15:27), so yes, there is room for exceptions.

Then---"when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth. 15:28)

I think these verses explain themselves. There is room for exceptions, AND Christ will always be in subjection to God, the Father.

The eternal order has been, is now, and forever will be: FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Within that DIVINE order, there is PERFECT EQUALITY among the three persons of the TRINITY. Each person in the GODHEAD, however, has an eternal role to play. In very human terms, which I use reverently, God the Father has delegated tasks to HIS well-beloved SON, with whom HE is well pleased (see Matthew 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9.35; and 2 Peter 1:17).

In the human sphere, particularly in the workplace, we sometimes assume that the employee is somehow less than, or inferior to, the employer. After all, the employer signs the paychecks, and the "boss" has more power than the people who "report to" her or him. He or she has the authority to dismiss an employee for any reason. Not so in the DIVINE sphere.

The FATHER is the Sovereign LORD (YHWH). The SON, the Second Person of the TRINITY, is subject to the FATHER and is perfectly obedient to HIM (see John 8:29). There is a mutual love affair, so to speak, between FATHER and SON. The FATHER loves HIS SON, and the SON loves HIS FATHER.

The HOLY SPIRIT's role seems to be to reveal CHRIST to all created beings, particularly to true believers in CHRIST (see John 14:15 ff.) JESUS called HIM "the SPIRIT of TRUTH" (ibid., v.17). So, JESUS IS the TRUTH, and the SPIRIT of TRUTH reveals HIM to people. The HOLY SPIRIT who indwells each and every believer in JESUS CHRIST is CHRIST's presence with them. HE is the PARACLETE (ADVOCATE or COUNSELOR) who teaches them, comforts them, helps them to pray, and empowers them to manifest the Fruit of the Spirit. In so doing, HE enables Christians to become more like CHRIST.

"Fatherliness" is not an attribute (love is). Fatherliness is a human label we attach to numerous characteristics. A good father is loving, tender, strong, gentle, supportive, encouraging, protective, and so on. God's attributes are revealed to us in GOD's WORD, the Bible. Each person of the Trinity possesses those attributes in equal measure. How they are expressed may appear to us humans to be different, but sometimes that is because of our finite perspective of things that are infinite. The concept of a TRIUNE GOD may seem to us at times to be an unplumbable mystery, but it is not a mystery to GOD.

The tri-unity of GOD is an eternal reality, the best "proof" of which is the existence of love, which is expressed ONLY in relationship. In eternity "past," love existed AMONG the three persons of the TRINITY. GOD IS ONE, but if CHRIST and the HOLY SPIRIT were not equally GOD from eternity past, then the oneness of GOD would be very self-centered and self-involved. Love can not exist in a self-centered, self-involved vacuum relationship. The relationship within the Godhead is a loving relationship and has been and will always be for all eternity past, present, and future...

[onewithhim]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

It also says that it is with the exception of the One who placed all things under the Son's feet (I
Corinth. 15:27), so yes, there is room for exceptions.

Then---"when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth. 15:28)

I think these verses explain themselves. There is room for exceptions, AND Christ will always be in subjection to God, the Father.

The eternal order has been, is now, and forever will be: FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Within that DIVINE order, there is PERFECT EQUALITY among the three persons of the TRINITY. Each person in the GODHEAD, however, has an eternal role to play. In very human terms, which I use reverently, God the Father has delegated tasks to HIS well-beloved SON, with whom HE is well pleased (see Matthew 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9.35; and 2 Peter 1:17).

The Father delegates. The Father approves. Therefore the Father is superior to the Son, and Jesus himself said this. "The Father is greater than I am," he said (John 14:28). And that didn't just mean while he was on Earth. In heaven it is the same for Jesus. "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God," Paul says at I Corinthians 11:3, when Christ returned to heaven.

Who is God? Not a trinity but ONE Person. Jesus said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) Paul wrote to the Corinthians also: "There is actually to us one God, the FATHER, out of whom all things are." (I Corinthians 8:6)

[LittleNipper]

1 Corinthians 15:28

When everything is subject to Christ, then the SON HIMSELF will also be subject to the ONE who subjected everything to HIM, so that God may be all in all.

This indicates that GOD the FATHER is subjected to CHRIST....

Quite the contrary it indicates the exact opposite. Let is look at what it says ...

The verse does indeed speak of someone being subject, but it says the THE SON will be subject to someone identified as "The ONE ..." ...



WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?



JW

But it also says {snip: did not ask what it also said} .

You have not answered the question. (Well move on to what it also says later, but first let's take the clause (part of the sentence) that uses the verb we are most interested in ---> "to subject")

So... Let me ask again my question for you is: WHO in your opinion is Paul refering to as "THE ONE" in this verse ?

The ONE is the FATHER of course. But it says that the ONE placed EVERYTHING in subjection to HIM (who is CHRIST of course). Everything doesn't leave any room for exceptions, now does it.

It also says that it is with the exception of the One who placed all things under the Son's feet (I
Corinth. 15:27), so yes, there is room for exceptions.

Then---"when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinth. 15:28)

I think these verses explain themselves. There is room for exceptions, AND Christ will always be in subjection to God, the Father.

The eternal order has been, is now, and forever will be: FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Within that DIVINE order, there is PERFECT EQUALITY among the three persons of the TRINITY. Each person in the GODHEAD, however, has an eternal role to play. In very human terms, which I use reverently, God the Father has delegated tasks to HIS well-beloved SON, with whom HE is well pleased (see Matthew 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9.35; and 2 Peter 1:17).

The Father delegates. The Father approves. Therefore the Father is superior to the Son, and Jesus himself said this. "The Father is greater than I am," he said (John 14:28). And that didn't just mean while he was on Earth. In heaven it is the same for Jesus. "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God," Paul says at I Corinthians 11:3, when Christ returned to heaven.

Who is God? Not a trinity but ONE Person. Jesus said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." (John 17:3) Paul wrote to the Corinthians also: "There is actually to us one God, the FATHER, out of whom all things are." (I Corinthians 8:6)

The Bible NEVER says that GOD is ONE PERSON. The Bible even uses the term US. Let US create man in OUR image. As for John 17:3 This can be used in two ways: One which is that the FATHER is the only true GOD in a unique sense, and secondly that HE is partially identical to the only true God which is TRIUNE thus HE is the only true God, as is JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT. When JESUS speaks of HIS FATHER being greater than HIMSELF, JESUS is always in HIS incarnate form after HE emptied HIMSELF to dwell among humanity...