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Elijah John
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JW organization.

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.
Last edited by Elijah John on Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: JW organization.

Post #31

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:And Jews believe their Canon is complete without the New Testament. Why are they wrong?
They (the Jews) are wrong for the same reason they as a people were wrong to reject Jesus as the Messiah, because their own scripture pointed to further developments and explicitly stated that God would establishe "a new covenant" which would be different from the one that had been in operation for the 1,500 years prior to the first century. Their own bible contained the promise of another Great Prophet like Moses, and a Prophet by definition reveals things.
How do you know that prophet is not Mohammad? Muslims point to that verse to give their Prophet validity.
If they do, they are in error. There are dozens of Messianic Prophecies in the Hebrew bible that enable the discerning to identify the Messiah, arguably The Prophet. One main one is that he would be an Israelite and (regarding the Messiah) a descendant of King David. If the Muslims believe this applies to Mohammad they are evidently wrong.

My ministry involves preaching mainly to Muslims and I can tell you that none that I have met apply that particular scripture (Deut 18:18) to Jesus. Muslims generally accept Jesus as a Great Prophet and as the Messiah (Christ).







List of some of the main Messianic Prophecies and additional reading
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 445#808445
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: JW organization.

Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:The post you point to only really demonstrates the antiquity of the Canon, not it's validity as the "Word of God".
QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#1 It claims to be the word of God.

Few authors actually claim the content of their books are the word of God. Even many of the so-called holy books rarely make this explicit claim. The writings of Hindu Vedic , for example, is essentially a collention of ritualistic commentaries about t hymns, philosophical treatises called the Upanishads, and the epic stories known as Ramayana and the Mahabharata. Buddha did not claim to be a god, and he actually said very little about God. The texts of Confucianism are an amalgam of records of events, moral rules, magical formulas, and songs. With the exception of the Quran, the holy book of Islam, surprisingly few religious make the unique claim of contain the words, thoughts, prophecies and instructions of Almighty God Himself.

#2 It contains information that would not have been available to the writers at the time.

The bible contains scientific detail that would not have been readily available to the writers and implies authorship from a higher source. For example, at a time when it was generally believe that the earth was flat and must have had visible means of support the bible describes the earth as a "globe" (sphere) that is suspended in space ie has not visible means of support. The bible also describes earth's water cycle, contains laws of quaranteen and other détails that the writers at the time would not have known (see Is 40:22; Job 26:7; Lev13, 14, 22, Num 19:20; Ecc 1:7)

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical détails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".




JW




For more information please go to other posts related to...

FAITH, TRUTH and ...RELIGION
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: JW organization.

Post #33

Post by polonius »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:A refreshing admission. Could your group be wrong about it's doctrine of Biblical infallibility?
Anything is possible, except for God to be wrong or his word to prove untrue. That there no God is impossible. That God's word will ever prove to be untrue under any circumstance whatsoever, is absolutely impossible. That Jehovah's Witnesses understanding of that word might be wrong, yes, that is of course possible.
RESPONSE: So are you saying that Jesus sent for two animals of different sizes and rode them into Jerusalem (to fulfill a prophecy as reported by Matthew, ) or that Jesus sent for and rode only one animal in a conventual manner when entering Jerusalem as reported by Mark, Luke, and John? Since this is a contradiction, one version must be untrue.

Are you saying that many of the dead were raise back to life when Jesus died, and then appeared to "many" in Jerusalem? And nobody else (including Mark, Luke, or John) reported this? Also, since the bible claim that a man can only die once (see Timothy I), these people are still around?
Anything is possible, except for God to be wrong or his word to prove untrue.
.

Perhaps in view of the above, you would want to reconsider your assertion about lack of error in the Bible.

JW posted
CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

RESPONSE: But if it really is "the word of God,", it can be proven by the many contradictions in the Bible that God makes mistakes (only two of which are noted above)

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Re: JW organization.

Post #34

Post by JehovahsWitness »

polonius.advice wrote:RESPONSE: So are you saying that Jesus sent for two animals of different sizes and rode them into Jerusalem (to fulfill a prophecy as reported by Matthew, )
I have already presented an explanation for this bible passage here you may feel inclined to read it.
polonius.advice wrote:... or that Jesus sent for and rode only one animal in a conventual manner when entering Jerusalem as reported by Mark, Luke, and John? Since this is a contradiction, one version must be untrue.
Not necessarily. I have already explained the concept of a contradiction and presented evidence that the referred to passages do not qualify as such. click here to read.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: JW organization.

Post #35

Post by Elijah John »

polonius.advice wrote: Are you saying that many of the dead were raise back to life when Jesus died, and then appeared to "many" in Jerusalem? And nobody else (including Mark, Luke, or John) reported this? Also, since the bible claim that a man can only die once (see Timothy I), these people are still around?
Excellent point. Also, such an extraordinary event would no doubt have gotten the attention of even the Romans...Jersusalem was still occupied territory when that event was purported to have taken place.

Surely Pilate would have noticed. Roman historians would have recorded it, and Caesar himself would have learned about it.

Yet only Matthew writes about it. Wouldn't such a mass resurrection at least have gotten the attention of Jesus "beloved disciple" John?

After all, he was the "signs" writer. Surely this, (if it actually happened), was a "sign".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: JW organization.

Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:Wouldn't such a mass resurrection at least have gotten the attention of Jesus "beloved disciple" John?

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the a "mass resurrection" ?
Matthew 27:52 reads: "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" - King James Version


The New International Version (NIV) speaks about bodies "raised to life." and the New Living Translation (NLT) speaks of bodies being "raised from the dead". However, by far the majority of translators do NOT refer to being raised "to life" but only refer to "raised".
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-52.htm

The greek word for life (zoe) does not appear in the original text neither does the word that is frequently used in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to a resurrection (anastasis). The word employed at Matthew 27:52 "egeiro". The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon lists its meanings as follows:
EGEIRO Definition
1. to arouse, cause to rise a. to arouse from sleep, to awake
b. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
c. to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc
d. to raise up, produce, cause to appear

1. to cause to appear, bring before the public
2. to raise up, stir up, against one
3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born
4. of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect
So while in a religious context we automatically think of the word "arise" to mean "from the dead to life" the Greek word actually has a much broader meaning. This is similar to its English equivalent.
To illustrate: We use the word "rise" in various ways in English: we refer to a "rise to power" "rising temperature" "the rising sun" "to raise an objection" ... in short the word by itself (to rise) , simply means "to appear" or to come into view ( influencial), from obscurity, or to go from a low to a higher position either literally or figuratively
In a similar way risen (ἠγέ�θη; ēgerthē) can imply "from death to life" but this is not always the case. The translators of the NIV and NLT have decided that the context implies from death to life (see 1B above) for Mat 27:52 and have added "to life" to clarify their reading of the text but one could just as legitimately have read it to be 1D (above) and translated the clause "bodies appeared" .
Indeed Vines entry on this word lists the various usage of "egeiro" as follows:

3. Arise, Arose, Arouse, Raise, Rise, Rouse egeiro is frequently used in the NT in the sense of "raising" (Active Voice), or "rising" (Middle and Passive Voices):
(a) from sitting, lying, sickness, e.g., Matt 2:14; Matt 9:5,7,19; James 5:15; Rev 11:1;
(b) of causing to appear, or, in the Passive, appearing, or raising up so as to occupy a place in the midst of people, Matt 3:9; Matt 11:11; Mark 13:22; Acts 13:22. It is thus said of Christ in Acts 13:23; cp. 1(c);
(c) of rousing, stirring up, or "rising" against, Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8;
(d) of "raising buildings," John 2:19,20;
(e) of "raising or rising" from the dead
source: http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?s ... ng=greek#3

#Question: But didn't the "raising" have to be refering "to life" (ie a ressurection) since the scriptures say they subsequently went into the city (Jérusalem)?

No, because Matthew doesn't identify who "they" were: "they" could be the bodies but it is more likely the "they" is refering to the individuals who saw the bodies "appear" given the constraits imposed by the rules of the original language and the fact that dead bodies can't walk.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: JW organization.

Post #37

Post by polonius »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
polonius.advice wrote:RESPONSE: So are you saying that Jesus sent for two animals of different sizes and rode them into Jerusalem (to fulfill a prophecy as reported by Matthew, )
I have already presented an explanation for this bible passage here you may feel inclined to read it.
polonius.advice wrote:... or that Jesus sent for and rode only one animal in a conventual manner when entering Jerusalem as reported by Mark, Luke, and John? Since this is a contradiction, one version must be untrue.
Not necessarily. I have already explained the concept of a contradiction and presented evidence that the referred to passages do not qualify as such. click here to read.
RESPONSE:

No, you didn't. Once again you are claiming that you did so but fail to provide evidence.

Merely claiming that you have done so is no proof that you actually did so.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_ ... _the_Bible

The question of the internal consistency of the Bible concerns the coherence and textual integrity of the biblical scriptures. Disputes regarding biblical consistency have a long history. The church father Origen (184/185 – 253/254 CE[1]) replied to the writer Celsus, a critic of Christianity, who had complained that some Christians had remodelled the Gospel to answer objections, admitting that some had done so.[2]

Classic texts that discuss questions of inconsistency, from a critical secular perspective, include The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine,[3] the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus by Baruch Spinoza, the Encyclopédie of Denis Diderot, and the Dictionnaire philosophique of Voltaire.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/law-of-contradiction
law of contradiction
noun, Logic.

"(T)he law that a proposition cannot be both true and false or that a thing cannot both have and not have a given property."

Note: One animal (it) or more than one (them). Observe the contradiction.

Note: And where are you claiming all those resurrected people went, and why are there no other reports in the New Testament or elsewhere?

Since they can’t die a second time, where are they now?
Last edited by polonius on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: JW organization.

Post #38

Post by Elijah John »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote:Wouldn't such a mass resurrection at least have gotten the attention of Jesus "beloved disciple" John?

QUESTION: But does Matthew 27:52 refer to the a "mass resurrection" ?
Matthew 27:52 reads: "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose" - King James Version


The New International Version (NIV) speaks about bodies "raised to life." and the New Living Translation (NLT) speaks of bodies being "raised from the dead". However, by far the majority of translators do NOT refer to being raised "to life" but only refer to "raised".
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-52.htm

The greek word for life (zoe) does not appear in the original text neither does the word that is frequently used in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to a resurrection (anastasis). The word employed at Matthew 27:52 "egeiro". The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon lists its meanings as follows:
EGEIRO Definition
1. to arouse, cause to rise a. to arouse from sleep, to awake
b. to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life
c. to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc
d. to raise up, produce, cause to appear

1. to cause to appear, bring before the public
2. to raise up, stir up, against one
3. to raise up i.e. cause to be born
4. of buildings, to raise up, construct, erect
So while in a religious context we automatically think of the word "arise" to mean "from the dead to life" the Greek word actually has a much broader meaning. This is similar to its English equivalent.
To illustrate: We use the word "rise" in various ways in English: we refer to a "rise to power" "rising temperature" "the rising sun" "to raise an objection" ... in short the word by itself (to rise) , simply means "to appear" or to come into view ( influencial), from obscurity, or to go from a low to a higher position either literally or figuratively
In a similar way risen (ἠγέ�θη; ēgerthē) can imply "from death to life" but this is not always the case. The translators of the NIV and NLT have decided that the context implies from death to life (see 1B above) for Mat 27:52 and have added "to life" to clarify their reading of the text but one could just as legitimately have read it to be 1D (above) and translated the clause "bodies appeared" .
Indeed Vines entry on this word lists the various usage of "egeiro" as follows:

3. Arise, Arose, Arouse, Raise, Rise, Rouse egeiro is frequently used in the NT in the sense of "raising" (Active Voice), or "rising" (Middle and Passive Voices):
(a) from sitting, lying, sickness, e.g., Matt 2:14; Matt 9:5,7,19; James 5:15; Rev 11:1;
(b) of causing to appear, or, in the Passive, appearing, or raising up so as to occupy a place in the midst of people, Matt 3:9; Matt 11:11; Mark 13:22; Acts 13:22. It is thus said of Christ in Acts 13:23; cp. 1(c);
(c) of rousing, stirring up, or "rising" against, Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8;
(d) of "raising buildings," John 2:19,20;
(e) of "raising or rising" from the dead
source: http://gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?s ... ng=greek#3

#Question: But didn't the "raising" have to be refering "to life" (ie a ressurection) since the scriptures say they subsequently went into the city (Jérusalem)?

No, because Matthew doesn't identify who "they" were: "they" could be the bodies but it is more likely the "they" is refering to the individuals who saw the bodies "appear" given the constraits imposed by the rules of the original language and the fact that dead bodies can't walk.
Your whole post here is a perfect example of verbal, linguistic and rhetorical gymnastics, the type of which is very often resorted to in order to defend the obvious errors or absurdities contained within the Bible.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Is JW's explanation from a JW publication?

Post #39

Post by polonius »

#Question: But didn't the "raising" have to be refering "to life" (ie a ressurection) since the scriptures say they subsequently went into the city (Jérusalem)?

JW claimed
/quote]No, because Matthew doesn't identify who "they" were: "they" could be the bodies but it is more likely the "they" is refering to the individuals who saw the bodies "appear" given the constraits imposed by the rules of the original language and the fact that dead bodies can't walk.
Matthew 27 “The earth quaked, rocks were split, 52y tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.�

RESPONSE:

Is yours a serious explanation? Check the on-line Greek translation regarding your erroneous "constraints of the original language." Your remark is untrue.

Matthew is very specific who “they� were. “They “are those coming forth from their tombs"

Check the on-line Greek-English translation for Matthew 27:53-54
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... _Index.htm

Your attempt to explain away Matthew’s statement is rather bizarre.

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Re: Is JW's explanation from a JW publication?

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 39 by polonius.advice]

The grammar constraints I was refering to is that fact that the pronoun “they� (Matt. 27:53, RS) could not refer to the “bodies,� because all pronouns in the Greek have gender and “they� is in the masculine, whereas “bodies� is in the neuter gender. Thus, if we hold strictly to the text, whoever (or whatever) later went into Jérusalem, it could not be the "bodies" that appeared (arose) after the earthquake.

All we can really say for certain is

a) bodies were "appeared" (see my earlier post ) following an earthquake; and
b) that "they" ("people") went into Jérusalem after his (presumably Jesus') resurrection.

No more, no less. We cannot say for sure whether 'they" were individuals that had previously been dead or "they" were people that simply had been present to witness the event. Indeed by far the majority of translations do not specify who "they" were, since the writer of Matthew himself is not specific.
http://biblehub.com/matthew/27-53.htm

CONCLUSION: The verses in Matthew 27:52-53 are somewhat ambigious and nobody can be dogmatic about how it should be translated. That said, the verses can without violation of the grammar or other biblical texts, be understood to mean that bodies were explulsed from graves following the earthquake and that those that witnesses the event, later (After Jesus' resurrection) testified to the above in Jérusalem.

VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS

BEREAN STUDY BIBLE
The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people

KING JAMES VERSION
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

NEW WORLD TRANSLATION
the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city), and they became visible to many people.
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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