For those who still believe

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Elijah John
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For those who still believe

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

Some questions.

I hear this most often from Evangelicals and Jehovah's Witnesses...seldom from Catholics or mainline Protestants.

Question 1)If you hold the position that Muslims do indeed worship a "different God", how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Through your own studies? Thinking for yourself?*

Question 2) Or is there some Evangelical "play book" instructing believers to regard Islam as worshiping a "different God"?*

Question 3) Is the phrase a "different God" a euphemism for something worse?

Quesstion 4) Do you think demonization (in this case perhaps literally) of other great world religions is God's will and any way to be a peacemaker, as Jesus expects God's children to be?

Question 5) Do we have ANY Evangelicals or Jehovah's Witnesses among us who believe that yes, Muslims worship the same God, but in a different way?

I am not a Muslim, but let me make a case that Muslims do not worship a "different God".

a) Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham...so do Christians and Jews.

b) In Genesis, Ishmael was promised that he too would be the father of a great nation" Ishmael is widely regarded as the ancestor of the Arab people.

c) Is is such a stretch then, to believe the Arabs would have a prophet of their own?

d) the Qur'an itself teaches that God gave "Moses the Torah, King David the Psalms, and Jesus the Gospel...and has high regard for Jews and Christians as fellow "People of the Book".

e) Mohammad hated idolatry, and taught only worship of the one true God of Abraham. But he did not consider Jews and monotheistic Christians to be idolators, in fact, Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews, but not polytheists.

f) Even Pope John Paul II taught that Muslims worship the same God as Christians do, but of course he also taught that does not contradict the belief that Christians have the fullness of Truth.


After considering the above, does Islam still sound to you like a religion that teaches people to worship a "different God"?

-----------------------------------

(*I get suspicious when folks march in lock-step with no deviation)
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Willum
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Post #31

Post by Willum »

What an interesting conversation:

May I point out that if this Muslim Allah, Germanic Got, or Jewish (or is it Roman?) Yowe is omnipotent, as you desperately require him to be, then all your petty perceptions about which one of you are right, mean less than nothing to him.

He determines which one of your beliefs is "right," or whether it is the high church of the Andromeda Galaxy.

If you believe you worship an all-powerful god, there can be only one. You can only worship ONE all-powerful god, no matter what mistaken belief you MAY or MAY NOT hold personally, or institutionally.

I mean, one of the tenets of all you believe is that you can't understand your respective big "g"'s, am I wrong?

And we can't understand one another, what chance have you of understanding a creature to whom blackening a thousands Suns would be a parlor trick?

One, whom, for all these beliefs you have about it, can be un-make those beliefs, or simply ignore them, without the slightest repercussion. (If God decided not to save your soul, whatchya gonna do? What if he decided to go back in time and not make your precious covenant, or just claim that he didn't make it? or so on,or so on? what are you going to say? "That's not fair?" He would hear your over the sound of your crackling souls.)

Elijah John
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Post #32

Post by Elijah John »

Willum wrote:
If you believe you worship an all-powerful god, there can be only one. You can only worship ONE all-powerful god, no matter what mistaken belief you MAY or MAY NOT hold personally, or institutionally.
That's my point. One God worshiped in different ways, some more "correct" than others.

Christians may argue that their path is the only path, and Muslims vice versa. Right now, it's just competing claims.

Instead of claiming that "my way* is the only way"...wouldn't it be better to show a little humility and at least say, "my way is the best way" or better yet, "my way is the best way for me?

(*read for "my way" ;"Jesus way" or "Mohammad's way" etc if you like.)

To use the much maligned cliche', "many paths to the same God".
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Elijah John
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If it can be demonstrated...

Post #33

Post by Elijah John »

OK, here's a question for exclusionary Christians. If it is ever conclusively demonstrated that Jesus is not God, would you still insist that Muslims worship a "different" God?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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The Tanager
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Post #34

Post by The Tanager »

Elijah John wrote:
Willum wrote:
If you believe you worship an all-powerful god, there can be only one. You can only worship ONE all-powerful god, no matter what mistaken belief you MAY or MAY NOT hold personally, or institutionally.
That's my point. One God worshiped in different ways, some more "correct" than others.
I am not saying that you have to believe everything exactly right in order to be rightfully worshiping God. I don't think God requires that. I even believe that there may be salvation for those who are not Trinitarian Christians (but that salvation comes from the Incarnation), if they are relying on God to make things right between them rather than expecting their rituals or moral deeds or beliefs or sincerity, etc. to make things right.

Islam says you have to confess the Shahada or you are an unbeliever. Judaism, it seems to me, focuses on Torah and our morality. Trinitarian Christianity believes Jesus Incarnation accomplished something for humans we couldn't accomplish for ourselves. Your perennial worldview is different from each of these, changing what these traditions say about themselves to fit into your different worldview...or it just goes against logic.
Elijah John wrote:Christians may argue that their path is the only path, and Muslims vice versa. Right now, it's just competing claims.

Instead of claiming that "my way* is the only way"...wouldn't it be better to show a little humility and at least say, "my way is the best way" or better yet, "my way is the best way for me?

(*read for "my way" ;"Jesus way" or "Mohammad's way" etc if you like.)

To use the much maligned cliche', "many paths to the same God".
I don't think that is humility. I think it is being illogical. Humility isn't going against where you see truth leading. It does involve realizing you could be wrong and being open to others and listening to them and allowing them to make their own decisions and all of that, but humility doesn't mean assuming you are wrong.
Elijah John wrote:OK, here's a question for exclusionary Christians. If it is ever conclusively demonstrated that Jesus is not God, would you still insist that Muslims worship a "different" God?
Yes, for all the reasons I've already talked about. The religions teach different things about God, even those religions that teach Jesus isn't God.

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JehovahsWitness
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Re: For those who still believe

Post #35

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote:It's dispicable because true replacement theology holds that God has forsaken the Jews because they do not accept Jesus.
God did not forsake the Jews, THEY forsook God. If your partner insists on a divorce, sooner or later you have got to give it to them.

If you read the bible you will see that as a people again and again the Israelites turned their back on Jehovah, persecuted and killed his prophets and forsook his law. This is no secret it is part of their national history. When they finally broke the terms of their contract or covenent with Jehovah he had no choice but to open the offer to other nations. He had promised the Jews exclusively the chance to become a "royal priesthood", they didn't want it.

Now that doesn't mean that any nation is barred from becoming part of his "new nation" a child of Abraham inside. And indeed the first Christians were all Jewish, they were the first to have the opportunity to becoming spirit anointed sons of God and even today, there are many thousands that have accepted to become part of the "New Covenant" that Jeremiah spoke of.

Far from being "despicable" God's finally accepting gentiles could be viewed as the children of Abraham, meant Jehovah proved loyal to his word, faithful to Abraham and generous to his people. And as a gentile myself, I can but say I am most grateful indeed.

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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