Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's authorship

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Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's authorship

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

JehovahsWitness claims that the contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin. The third reason of three given is that it records history before it has happened.

Questions for debate:
  1. Is the Bible a reliable predictor of future events?
  2. Have any of the Biblical prophesies failed?
  3. Is fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of the Bible's divine authorship?
JehovahsWitness wrote:QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical dtails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Post #31

Post by cnearing »

That one line doesn't even matter. The author of Ezekiel makes very clear his vision that Tyre would be swept away, reduced to bare rock, and never again reinhabited *several* times, using different langauge each time.

"I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock."

Didn't happen.

"Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets"

Didn't happen.

"I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more. "

Didn't happen.

"When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, "

Didn't happen.

"I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found"

Didn't happen.

JW's quibble over one bit of language is irrelevant in the face of the clear, obvious, recurring theme of this prophecy--that Tyre would be swept away and lost. Which never happened. It never even came close. Despite its occasional military losses, Tyre has remained continuously inhabited throughout its history.

It is still there. People live there. It isn't a bare rock. The author of Ezekiel says it will never be found, but any idiot can falsify this prophecy just by going on Google Maps and finding it.


Also, note that this quibble about who is being referred to in each line is silly. Here, for instance, the author is still talking about Nebuchadnezzar specifically, and gets it wrong, again:

"His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the war horses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through. "

The only place where this quibble about whether the author is talking about the Babylonians or some other unspecified army matters is with this line,

"They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea."

Here, apologists like to point to the fact that Alexander's army did in fact raze some of the mainland settlement and use its rubble to build a land bridge out to the city. Not only is it very questionable whether this switch from "him" to "they" actually suggests that the author intended to suddenly stop talking about the Babylonians, mid-thought, and switch over to talking about some other unspecified future army, it doesn't even matter.

Even if that were the case, the prophecy is still clearly a failure.

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Post #32

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 27 by cnearing]

BABYLONIAN SEIGE OF TYRE

INTRODUCTION While the fate of Tyre is depicted in a series of prophecies pointing to various conquests (See Ezekiel 26:3-6), the bible book of Ezekiel describes the Babylonian attack of Tyre under Nebuchadnezzar specifically from verse 7 through 11, in the following terms:
EZEKIEL 26:7-11

"For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: Here I am bringing King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon against Tyre from the north; he is a king of kings, with horses, war chariots, cavalrymen, and an army of many soldiers. He will destroy your settlements in the countryside with the sword, and he will build a siege wall and throw up a siege rampart against you and raise up a great shield against you. He will pound your walls with his battering ram, and with his axes he will pull down your towers. His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust, and the sound of the cavalry, the wheels, and the chariots will cause your walls to shake when he enters your gates, like men storming a city with broken walls. The hooves of his horses will trample down all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your mighty pillars will crash to the ground.
Does secular history support a Babylonian siege of Tyre? Yes, according to the Jewish historian Josephus, the Babylonians laid a siege of Tyre which lasted for 13 years (see Against Apion, I, 156 [21]).

Can we believe Nebuchanezzar actually breached the walls and destroyed the city? Although secular history does not record exactly how thorough or effective Nebuchadnezzars efforts were, support for this reading comes from the fact that historian Diodorus attested that Alexander later used the stones from the mainland "old city" of Tyre destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar to build his mole (see Diodorus, 17.40; Wells 1936). The withdrawal of the city's wealth and military force to Tyres offshore Island annex*, is further evidence that the mainland city was in peril of immenent fall.


Did the bible predict that Tyre would be COMPLETELY destroyed at the hand of the Babylonians?

No, if we look carefully at the description the prophecy speaks of a siege and the city's defences falling and a destruction of "pillars" and "houses", no mention of utter destruction or desolation at his hands (the opening verses 1-6, not applying to this specific military endeavor). Indeed, though great, the bible does not in fact say that Nebuchanezzars seige would have total success. Ezekiel later predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would thereafter have to turn to the more profitable prize of the wealth of Egypt, stating "[...] Here I am giving to Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon the land of Egypt, and he must carry off its wealth and make a big spoil of it and do a great deal of plundering of it; and it must become wages for his military force." indicating his seige of Tyre would not provide the desired wealth*-- Ez 29:19. The fulfillment of this prophecy came was fulfilled when Nebuchanzzer moved on Egypt in 588.[/ul]

* The seaport city actually had two parts, the mainland city (seiged by the Babylonians) and the offshore annex. Lacking a fleet the Babylonians fail to take the island (where the bulk of the treasures of Tyres had been transfered).

Does the bible say Nebuchanezzar would be Tyre's last conquerer? "THEY" or "HE"

Ezekiel prophecies on the Babylonian siege mentioned Nebuchanezzar by name. However in verses 1-6 and then again from verse 12 of his prophecy in chapter 26 there is a shift and Ezekiel speaks not of one King ("he") to a number of conquerers ("they"). That chapter 26 is highlighting a number of different invasions, starting with Nebuchanezzar but not limited to him, is clear from the introduction to the passage which says "and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves". So Ezekiel highlights the fact that "many nations" would crash against Tyre like a series of "waves", culminating in the Grecian invasion that would forever end Tyres material dominance in the region (Compare Ezekiel 26:4, 5, 12). The Babylonian seige is depicted in scripture as but one of a series of events which turned out stretch over several centuries.




RELATED POSTS

Forty Year Egyptian desolation [Ezekiel 29:9-11]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 31#p824431

WHO does the bible predict would destroy TYRE? [Ezekiel 26, 27]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p868896

Did the bible wrongly predict the permenent destruction of the city of Tyre? [Ezekiel 26:14]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p824428

Did the bible predict permanent destruction following the Babylonian conflict?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p868896
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 27 by cnearing]



TYRE'S DESTRUCTION

Does Ezekiel 26:21 and 27: 36 indicate Tyre would never be rebuilt?
Ezekiel 26:21 reads in the New World Translation (NWT): Sudden terrors are what I shall make you, and you will not be; and you will be sought for, but you will no more be found to time indefinite, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah

Chapter 27: 36 of the same book reads "As for merchants among the peoples, they will certainly whistle over you. Sudden terrors are what you must become, and you will be no more to time indefinite."

Firstly as noted, Ezekiels prophecy applies to the Babylonian (not the Grecian) conquest which would indeed be a temporary one. Further note the expression as found in the New World Translation (NWT) "time indefinte". While most bible read "forever" or "never", the Hebrew word in the original text oh-lam carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time (strongs #2759: lasting, long (time)).

Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746). So while ohlam CAN of course mean forever (ie without end, especially when associated with other terms such as "adh" (everlasting/eternity) or "sach" (forever/always)) "ohlam" it is not, in itself, a synonyme of unending or forever; it often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things existence can be said to be "to time indefinite" because the time of their end is not then specified. (. (Ex 31:16, 17; Ro 10:4; Ga 5:18; Col 2:16, 17; Heb 9:15, Ex 40:15; Heb 7:11-24; 10:1.)[/quote]



Did the bible wrongly predict the permenent destruction of the city of Tyre? [Ezekiel 26:14]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#824428
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Post #34

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]
However in verses 1-6 and then again from verse 12 of his prophecy in chapter 26 there is a shift and Ezekiel speaks not of one King ("he") to a number of conquerers ("they").
This isn't as sound as you'd like to think. Given that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over an empire, that is, a conglomeration of many nations subjected to him as king (he would technically be called an emperor today), Neb attacking Tyre with an army of soldiers from the many lands under his rule would fit the 'prophecy'.

Even if I was to go with what you say, this makes God out to be incredibly unclear, given that at the time the 'prophecy' was given, there was no indication that it 'meant' a series of subjective invasions.
Did the bible predict that Tyre would be COMPLETELY destroyed at the hand of the Babylonians?

No,...
Whether at the hands of the Babylonians or someone else, Tyre is still there. Do I honestly need to quote each and every line that speaks of the permanent destruction of Tyre?
Firstly as noted, Ezekiels prophecy applies to the Babylonian (not the Grecian) conquest which would indeed be a temporary one.
He gives no indication that at any point he starts talking about the Greeks. At best, at absolute best, you've got that 'many nations like waves' line, but that is itself not clear as to whether it doesn't mean the many nations that would have made up Babylon's empire.
Second, if Ezekiel's prophecy does NOT apply to the Greek conquest...why bother mentioning them at all?

Third...this makes the 'prophecy' unfalsifiable. Instead of something clear, with a set date and time, with no vague allusions as to who the people involved are, we've got something that can potentially be 'fulfilled' at any time throughout history. For all you and I know, someone can come along and say that it's going to be fulfilled fifty years from now, when Saudi Arabia attacks, and THEN the nation will be no more, throughout the rest of history.
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Post #35

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 33 by JehovahsWitness]
Ezekiel 26:21 reads in the New World Translation (NWT): Sudden terrors are what I shall make you, and you will not be; and you will be sought for, but you will no more be found to time indefinite, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
I also want to point out...the NWT doesn't say that. Here it is straight from the horse's mouth, from your own website.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... zekiel/26/
I will bring sudden terror upon you, and you will no longer be.+ They will search for you, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
(emphasis mine)
Ezekiel 27:36
as you quote it
Chapter 27: 36 of the same book reads "As for merchants among the peoples, they will certainly whistle over you. Sudden terrors are what you must become, and you will be no more to time indefinite."
As it is from the JW website...
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... zekiel/27/
The merchants among the nations will whistle over what happened to you.
Your end will be sudden and terrible,
And you will cease to exist for all time.

While most bible read "forever" or "never",
Like your own?
"ohlam" it is not, in itself, a synonyme of unending or forever; it often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things existence can be said to be to time indefinite because the time of their end is not then specified.
Then JWs have up on their website a faulty translation. Or God likes being vague and unclear.
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Post #36

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 31 by cnearing]
EZEKIEL 26: 4, 12
" I will scrape away soil and make her a shining, bare rock. [...] they will throw your stones and your woodwork and your soil into the water
QUESTION: Did rubble stonework of Trye end up in the water?

The prophecy of Ezekiel chapter 26 speaks of a series of attacks against the wealthy seaport kingdom city of TYRE (see verses 1-6). An interesting feature of Ezekiel's prophecy is the indication that the stone and woodwork rubble of Tyre would end up in the sea ("the water"). This prophecy found fulfillment when Alexandre the Great set his mind to conquer the pheneocian city in what would prove to be another "wave" against her (see chap 26:3).

Following the Babylonian siege, the city wealth of Trye remained in tact due the many of its inhabitants as well as iits military force withdrawing to its offshore annex and taking its fabulous wealth with it. It essentially survived and by the time of the Babylonian resettlement of Judah was once again a prosperous city.

The bible encyclopedia Insight on the Scriptures, Vol II p. 1136 explains
In 332 B.C.E. Alexander the Great marched his army across Asia Minor and, in his sweep southward, paused long enough to give his attention to Tyre. When the city refused to open its gates, Alexander in his rage had his army scrape up the ruins of the mainland city and throw it into the sea, thus building a causeway out to the island city, [...] With his naval forces holding the Tyrian ships bottled up in their harbor, Alexander set about constructing the highest siege towers ever used in ancient wars. Finally, after seven months the 46-m-high (150 ft) walls were breached. In addition to the 8,000 military men killed in battle, 2,000 prominent leaders were killed as a reprisal, and 30,000 inhabitants were sold into slavery.
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EZEKIEL 26:5
"She will become a drying yard for dragnets in the midst of the sea."
The artificial peninsula built by Alexandre has since been enlarged by sand deposited there by the water. In the present seaport village, fishermen can be seen there drying their nets.

RELATED POSTS

The Babylonian siege of Tyre [Nebuchadnezzar]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 167#871167

WHO does the bible predict would destroy TYRE? [Ezekiel 26, 27]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 896#868896

Did the bible wrongly predict the PERMANENT destruction of Tyre?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 173#871173

Did the rubble of Tyre end up in the SEA?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 201#871201

Forty Year Egyptian desolation [Ezekiel 29:9-11]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 431#824431
Further reading (non-Witness)
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... ament.aspx
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Post #37

Post by cnearing »

At this point, my analysis remains essentially unaddressed.

Did Ezekiel claim that Nebuchadnezzar would raze and sack Tyre?

Yes.

Did that happen?

No.

Did Ezekiel claim that Tyre would be reduced to "bare rock?"

Yes.

Did that happen?

No.

Did Ezekiel claim that Tyre would be lost and forgotten, never to be populated again?

Yes.

Did that happen?

No.

Correctly guessing that Nebuchadnezzar would attack Tyre doesn't get you much if anything in terms of prophecy points. Screwing up essentially every significant detail makes this a failed prophecy.

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Post #38

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 37 by cnearing]

Already addressed: feel free to read the links provided.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#824428
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 173#871173

JW


ps:
cnearing wrote:Did Ezekiel claim that Tyre would be lost and forgotten
Feel free to provide a verse for this idea of "lost and forgotten".

Thanks,

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
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Post #39

Post by alexxcJRO »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I already address this in a previous thread but you stopped responding.
viewtopic.php?t=32678&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10

Here again :

Alexander's conquest brought a permanent end the Phoenecian city of Tyre.....

Firstly as noted, Ezekiels prophecy applies to the Babylonian (not the Grecian) conquest which would indeed be a temporary one. Further note the expression as found in the New World Translation (NWT) "time indefinte". While most bible read "forever" or "never", the Hebrew word in the original text oh-lam carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time (strongs #2759: lasting, long (time)).

Nonsense. :-s

Here from the JehovasWitness.org:
13 I will put an end to the noise of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more.+ 14 And I will make you a shining, bare rock, and you will become a drying yard for dragnets.+ You will never be rebuilt, for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... zekiel/26/
It says never be rebuilt.

Also the bible clearly says that Tyre would be completely sacked, destroyed, turn it into bare rock but Alexander the Great didnt do this either, for 17 years later the defenses and walls of Tyre were functional. They were able to keep Antigonus I Monophthalmus at bay for more then an year.

The city of Tyre has been besieged many times throughout history.
Siege of Tyre (724"720 BC) by the Assyrians under Shalmaneser V and Sargon II
Siege of Tyre (701 BC) by the Assyrians under Sennacherib
Siege of Tyre (671 BC) by the Assyrians under Esarhaddon
Siege of Tyre (663 BC) by the Assyrians under Ashurbanipal
Siege of Tyre (586"573 BC) by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar II
Siege of Tyre (332 BC) by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great
Siege of Tyre (315"314 BC) by Antigonus I Monophthalmus(In 314 BC Antigonus invaded Phoenicia, under Ptolemy's control, and besieged Tyre for more than a year. )
Siege of Tyre (996"998) by the Fatimids
Siege of Tyre (1111"1112) by the Crusaders under Baldwin I of Jerusalem
Siege of Tyre (1124) by the Venetians
Siege of Tyre (1187) by the Ayyubids under Saladin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tyre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonus_I_Monophthalmus

The city of Tyre was never a bare rock after 607 BC. The prophesy is dead wrong. 8-)
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Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

cnearing wrote:Did Ezekiel claim that Nebuchadnezzar would raze and sack Tyre? Yes.
No he did not.
TO SACK: To rob (a town, for example) of goods or valuables, especially after capture. n. The looting or pillaging of a captured city or town.
Full explanation
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 167#871167
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