Paul changed Jesus' message.

[dio9]

The difference between Jesus message and Paul's is simply the dominion under God now or later.Paul taught God's dominion would come when Jesus returned. Until then Paul gathered people to wait for it. Paul's message was not to change the world but to endure the world . Jesus 'was to change the way things are done in this world. The difference between change and endurance are clear.

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

This focus didn't fade away until 10 or 20 years later and the destruction of the Temple. When Paul's gentile ministry led to and the getilization of the Church. Not thought of as a church by James John and Peter, it changed focus from Jewish messiah ism to Christian forgiveness endure sacrifice and waiting for Christ's return.

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar. Paul did not hold this independence belief, he was content to remain part of the Empire , with his gentile ministry he could do nothing else and changed the focus of Jesus' kingdom message.

please comment agree or disagree.

[JP Cusick]

The difference between Jesus message and Paul's is simply the dominion under God now or later.Paul taught God's dominion would come when Jesus returned. Until then Paul gathered people to wait for it. Paul's message was not to change the world but to endure the world . Jesus 'was to change the way things are done in this world. The difference between change and endurance are clear.

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

This focus didn't fade away until 10 or 20 years later and the destruction of the Temple. When Paul's gentile ministry led to and the getilization of the Church. Not thought of as a church by James John and Peter, it changed focus from Jewish messiah ism to Christian forgiveness endure sacrifice and waiting for Christ's return.

The point this rambling revelation is Jesus and his disciples believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar. Paul did not hold this independence belief, he was content to remain part of the Empire , with his gentile ministry he could do nothing else and changed the focus of Jesus' kingdom message.

please comment agree or disagree.

I see a different twist to that interpretation - but still I agree with you.

Paul was the prophesied new-Moses (person like Moses), per Deuteronomy 18:15-22, and the proof is that Moses taught a watered down lukewarm message instead of the higher message from God, see Mark 10:4-6, and so too Paul taught a watered down lukewarm message instead of the higher message from Jesus.

This does not mean that Moses or Paul were wrong nor misleading, because it only means that God gave a stepping place, so the people needed to step over Moses to reach the Father, and in the New Testament people need to step over Paul to reach Christ.

If a person can not live up to the lesser words of Paul first, then they surely can not live up to the higher words of Christ.

Paul gave us crutches, as like Paul said that everybody falls short, but Jesus demands more as Jesus declares - Be ye perfect as thy Father is perfect.

Apostle Paul was more considerate of humanity, while Jesus is a hard person to follow.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 2 by JP Cusick]

yes but still Jesus was leading a messianic movement , a movement to restore the promised land to God . Paul wasn't. That's the point. Paul basically said work with the empire while Jesus said give to God what is God's , which means Judea is God's land. When he said give the coins to Caesar but give to God what is God's. That is the land and the land is God's given to the people.

Point being that was not Paul's message. Paul said Caesar is the God appointed ruler of Judea. End any messianic ideas of rebellion until Christ returns.

[JehovahsWitness]

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

It is true Jesus early disciples had some misconceptions about what the Messianic kingdom would do and when it would do it. Jesus when on earth however made it clear they were wrong and attempted to correct their vision. He promised the holy spirit that would arrive after his return to heaven that would "teach them" ie help clarify their understanding of the things he (Christ) had told them, implying that only after he had left the earth would the Apostles and early Christians fully understand the nature of the Kingdom he taught about.

CONCLUSION: Pointing to the misconceptions and misunderstandings of the disciples prior to Pentecost is an ineffective way to established the true nature of Jesus message regarding the Messianic Kingdom, other than to illustration what it would NOT do.

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[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus ... believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar.

Could you explain what you mean by this? Do you have any scriptural support for what you say here?

[dio9]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

sure there's tuns of scriptural support read Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel and Daniel. Jesus mission was the traditional one son of David Jewish Messiah. His message was believe in me. Now and I will set you free. Jesus was a religious political leader. That's why the Romans crucified him for seditious activity. They understood Jesus to be a challenge to their authority. And he was. He was just as much a challenge to political authority then as he would be today. The goal of the Messiah is restore the world to God.
People even today might think Jesus was a dreamer and a restored world is just a dream but that's what he was about.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

sure there's tuns of scriptural support read Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel and Daniel.

You'll need to be a little more specific you have referred to books which in total have hundreds of verses. Biblical references usually comprise of a book name plus a chapter and verse(s), for example Isaiah 65:12 (65 would be the chapter; the second number would be the specific verse, in this case "12").

I will take this opportunity to point out my question was not what the Roman authorities believed but what we can deduce about what Jesus himself believed.

Jesus ... believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar.

JW

[paarsurrey1]

Paul changed Jesus' message

Jesus like Moses believed in ONENESS of God:

"the Lord our God is one Lord". (Deuteronomy 6:4)

"And Jesus answered him. The first of all the commandments is, Hear O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first commandment". (Mark 12:29-30)

Paul, his associates and Church carved mythical Trinity.

Isn't it a change that Paul made in Moses' and Jesus' message, please?
Regards

[JP Cusick]

That said the original disciples of Jesus were about actually creating an independent Judea. Remember they were zealots who believed in the messianic prophecies of Israel. even Jesus' beloved disciples John and James asked Jesus to sit at his right hand in the kingdom. They believed until the end that meant the establishment of a real land liberated and independent under God not Caesar.

It is true Jesus early disciples had some misconceptions about what the Messianic kingdom would do and when it would do it. Jesus when on earth however made it clear they were wrong and attempted to correct their vision. He promised the holy spirit that would arrive after his return to heaven that would "teach them" ie help clarify their understanding of the things he (Christ) had told them, implying that only after he had left the earth would the Apostles and early Christians fully understand the nature of the Kingdom he taught about.

I agree with JW, that the Gospels tells that the early Disciples kept expecting Jesus to lead a revolt against Rome and to establish the Kingdom of God then and there in Judea and they were wrong.

And in later times starting 66 CE, it was the Zealots' rebellion which provoked the Roman army to sack Jerusalem.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. KJV

[dio9]

[Replying to post 5 by JehovahsWitness]

sure there's tuns of scriptural support read Isaiah Jeremiah Ezekiel and Daniel.

You'll need to be a little more specific you have referred to books which in total have hundreds of verses. Biblical references usually comprise of a book name plus a chapter and verse(s), for example Isaiah 65:12 (65 would be the chapter; the second number would be the specific verse, in this case "12").

I will take this opportunity to point out my question was not what the Roman authorities believed but what we can deduce about what Jesus himself believed.

Jesus ... believed in changing the status quo from a Provence in the Roman empire to an independent state under God not Caesar.

JW

The people who wrote the book and the readers of the book were about a restoration of independence. Ask any Rabbi. They may see Jesus as a remarkable man but didn't do what they expected. From their understanding of their scripture they don't believe Jesus was that promised messiah.
I think he could have fulfilled their expectations if he had won their support. I believe he was the Messiah and his unique Messianic method of non violence would have won the day.