God kills 70000 Israelites!!!

[alexxcJRO]

According to the perfect inerrant word of God(Bible) the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Yahweh kills 70,000 Israelites including countless of innocent(of any wrong-doing, sin) small children, infants for the sin of one man(David) after he or Satan incites him to sin:

2 Samuel 24

“David Enrolls the Fighting Men
24 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.�
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.�
3 But Joab replied to the king, “May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?�
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer. 6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon. 7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beershebain the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.
10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.�
11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 “Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’�
13 So Gad went to David and said to him, “Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me.�
14 David said to Gad, “I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands.�
15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the LORD relented concerning the disaster and said to the angel who was afflicting the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand.� The angel of the LORD was then at the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.
17 When David saw the angel who was striking down the people, he said to the LORD, “I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall on me and my family.� “

Observation: The account in 1 Chronicles is different then the account in 2 Samuel. (So much for the perfect, inerrant word of God)

Someone would wonder what abominable sin David committed that angered God so much to make him act in such horrendous way: killing tens of thousands of men, woman and children.

Hold on your straps people, here it comes: He did a census!!!

Imagine that. The poor guy did a census and Yahweh in his perfect wisdom, justice, benevolence decided that the punishment suited for this was not to punish in some way the person guilty of the wrong-doing, sin but instead kill 70 000 people innocent of this wrong-doing, sin; kill thousands of small children, infants who are innocent of any wrong-doing, sin.

David even asks a very wise question to God. Why punish others when he was the one guilty:

“I have sinned; I, the shepherd,[c] have done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done?�

Off course the perfect God of the Bible does not answer the question. How would he?!!!

Q: How can anyone be so oblivious to such a huge discrepancy, contradiction between the supposed attributes of God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, perfect wisdom, justice, mercy) and the actions of this being portrait in the Bible?

Q: How can anyone praise, worship a being that inflicts so easily, so much suffering and death to thousands of innocent children? How can one call this being benevolent or wise or loving?

Q: How can anyone in their right mind, with their rational faculties intact defend such actions and not smell the foul stench of nonsense rotting their brain?

[ttruscott]

Your assertion any human of any age is innocent is unproven...your appeal to a majority for support is false logic driven by virtue signalling.

Yes Ted, we are aware of your belief that infants and even the unborn are not innocent; that they are guilty and worthy of death before they are even born.

You have no support for this long standing claim of yours, except YOUR interpretation of the Bible [which is not authority here on C&A].

Since your opinion is worth something here without proof, I take the same privilege...although it does seem to conflict with the forum limits.

But you've failed to address the main point of my post, which is that the Bible passages I've quoted suggest that those from the 'wrong' tribe are guilty because of their race, not because of some theory about being damned before they are even born; damned by some eternal cosmic guilt you believe in.

Yes, I missed this...Guilty in whose eyes? The people who were engaged in these wars were not often following GOD (as we read) so it is obvious everyone had their own opinions about why they were fighting and I'm sure that some did hate them for being other.

From a theological pov, their beliefs are immaterial.

You have also failed to address the question central to the post:
"Do you disagree that the willful, intentional, infliction of horrible pain or death upon the innocent is not evil?"

Oh I addressed it alright by claiming such a situation is impossible. Now, to settle the black and white question: IF 'willful, intentional, infliction of horrible pain or death upon the innocent' ever happened, it would be evil.

Or is it OK to inflict horrible pain and death on babies because according to your doctrine they are not REALLY innocent?

IF 'not really' innocent is a weasel word* way of saying they were guilty of capital crimes, [Crimes that are punishable by death are known as capital crimes or capital offences.], against GOD and judged to be worthy of death on earth and banishment to the outer darkness, then it is righteous for a Judge to condemn them for their crimes pre-earth. How is the human age of the convict being brought to judgement relevant if a young age does not denote innocence??

*weasel words: words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading.

[Danmark]

BY DEFINITION, hurtful acts that are not necessary, are evil. Except for the special case of 'God,' where you exonerate 'him' because he is God. Do you disagree? Do you claim that torturing the innocent, that killing babies, that rape and the other things listed, are NOT evil?

Do you contend this to be an absolute definition, or is it a definition derived from cultural consensus? There are other issues to address with regard to your definition of evil, but let's just take this one step at a time.

I asked a question. You have not answered it. I ask again:

Do you claim that torturing the innocent, that killing babies, that rape and the other things listed, are NOT evil? When you answer this, we can move forward

[Bust Nak]

WHO OWNS THE EARTH? [thesis cropped]

Meh. Bottom line, the Bible says Satan is in charge until the second comming. Whether that qualify as ownership or not is not a very interesting discussion to me.

So destroying your own property cannot automatically be deemed as "evil" and there may be "circumstances" that deem it not evil. Is that what you mean by "depends" ?

Yes, that is what I meant.

[JehovahsWitness]

WHO OWNS THE EARTH? [thesis cropped]

Meh. Bottom line, the Bible says Satan is in charge until the second comming. Whether that qualify as ownership or not is not a very interesting discussion to me.

So destroying your own property cannot automatically be deemed as "evil" and there may be "circumstances" that deem it not evil. Is that what you mean by "depends" ?

Yes, that is what I meant.

Well since "what you meant" is in respect to property (ownership) your point is based on something you are not interested in. This is like saying I can't have stolen the car because I OWN it but I'm not interested in ownership. In any case since ownership is on of the determining factors as to what is evil according to you, you are effectively saying you are uninterested in your own point.

In any case what are the circumstances under which destroying what belongs to you is not evil?

[Bust Nak]

Well since "what you meant" is in respect to property (ownership) your point is based on something you are not interested in.

I am interested in ownership though.

This is like saying I can't have stolen the car because I OWN it but I'm not interested in ownership.

It's like saying I can't have stolen the car because I OWN it and I'm not interested in your thesis that merely being the registered owner doesn't count as ownership when it was my dad who paid for it.

In any case since ownership is on of the determining factors as to what is evil according to you...

n/a

In any case what are the circumstances under which destroying what belongs to you is not evil?

Too many variable to list, in general it's not evil when it doesn't harm others. As an example, it's not evil to destroy a painting I own and painted myself when I am tired of it.

[JehovahsWitness]

This is like saying I can't have stolen the car because I OWN it but I'm not interested in ownership.

It's like saying I can't have stolen the car because I OWN it and I'm not interested in your thesis ...

Ownership is who has the legal rights to something; if you have a counterargument that amounts to more than "I'm not interested in what you have to say" feel free to present it with your own theory as to why my point is scripturally invalid. If you don't the point stands that the planet belongs to Jehovah. It's not clear from your answer, are you suggesting otherwise?

As an example, it's not evil to destroy a painting I own and painted myself when I am tired of it.

So who owns and created the planet himself?

[JehovahsWitness]

in general it's not evil when it doesn't harm others.

Okay so let's apply your definition to some circumstances:

- does a painful but corrective medical procedure or surgery qualify as "harming others" (after all the patient will suffer)? Are all doctors that either endorse or literally participate in such actions evil?

- Is all war (that results in harm to others) evil?

[Bust Nak]

Ownership is who has the legal rights to something; if you have a counterargument that amounts to more than "I'm not interested in what you have to say" feel free to present it with your own theory as to why my point is scripturally invalid. If you don't the point stands that the planet belongs to Jehovah. It's not clear from your answer, are you suggesting otherwise?

I didn't say it was invalid, I said it wasn't interesting. If your theology says God legally owns Earth, that's fine by me. Other Christians have argued that Satan currently owns Earth, that's fine by me too. Had you actually made an invalid argument, I would have been much more interested in debating it.

So who owns and created the planet himself?

God, apparently.

Okay so let's apply your definition to some circumstances...

Shouldn't you be thinking up scenarios where no one is harmed but could still be considered evil to challenge my general rule? "No harm -> not evil" does not imply "harm -> evil."

does a painful but corrective medical procedure or surgery qualify as "harming others" (after all the patient will suffer)? Are all doctors that either endorse or literally participate in such actions evil?

Depends. Typically, no. For example, it would be evil if there is a better, less painful procedure, but a doctor opted for the worse alternative to earn more profit.

Is all war (that results in harm to others) evil?

No.

[ttruscott]

If you don't the point stands that the planet belongs to Jehovah.

I am not moved by this argument. HIS moral righteousness and loving kindness trumps HIS ownership.

HE cannot because HE will not cause any innocent to suffer let alone be destroyed.
Only those whose immoral evil threatens the evenly state of HIS marriage are destroyed in hell, not because He owns them but because they are inimical to HIS purpose and the happiness of the rest of creation which by their evil they cannot enjoy anyway.

Death is the wages of sin, not an owner's right of domain.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you don't the point stands that the planet belongs to Jehovah.

I am not moved by this argument. HIS moral righteousness and loving kindness trumps HIS ownership.

I haven't made any argument as to God's morals regarding ownership, only as to what he has the RIGHT to do so. Naturally a righteous God will execise his right in the light of his own moral standards; Are you suggesting I have argued otherwise?