Leaving church

[Wootah]

Church means gathering or group. So it doesn't have to be answered by just religious people.

This is how to test your own church. Not by leaving and seeing how they react but when people do leave or want to leave how does the church react?

How do you react when people leave you? Are you a cult of one that hates when people leave you or won't let them? Any experiences of trying to leave a cult to share

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Well that seems extreme. ...

Well its the biblical position ( scriptural support provided). Everyone is free to conform or not as they see fit. Do you hate it that people that do not view the biblical position as extreme? Would you feel the need to try and persuade them to see religion as you do ?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD, CHRISTIANITY and ... RELIGIOUS TRUTH

I don't know about our pal Wootah but I do, and 'all who hold with me'. We think and conclude that Religion is a mistake and a con, unwittingly, and often a scam and exploitation, often knowingly. It is especially dangerous when it becomes politicized.

That's why we do this. It matters.

Well I think that if you can't leave a group, whether a church or some friends then you were in a cult. Church actually means gathering in the bible so I am also including secular groups. For instance I read many people who were left wing as soon as they developed a right wing thought found their friends hating on them. They were in a cult.

I agree. The More a church clings to and makes it hard to leave, the more cultish it is. Westboro springs to mind. But while leaving a church and finding another ought to be relatively easy, the real point is, Should you? Religions have always had a problem with heretics and preachers with their own ideas. I think the US sowed the seeds of its' religious -cult ethos because there was no state church, since the Founders saw that as an instrument of British authority, as it was. While religious tolerance was fine and dandy, it allowed all kinds of personal religious sects, not to say cults, to spring up.

That aside, and putting on my Theist hat (the veil of tinfoil keeps falling over my eyes) the Bible says false prophets and known by their fruit. If the fruit is rotten, find another greengrocer. People have and must have the choice, and the Bible makes it clear, too. And the cultlike following of figureheads where the fruit is pretty disgusting needs no further comment from me.

But there comes a problem where 'making up your own religion' becomes a thing. While picking a church that fits the preferences isn't quite doing that, it's well on the way. Where do you draw the line? My goodness. Good old human reasoning and evidence seems to be the thing, not Faith or the Bible. But then that's the first foot on the slippery slope. Doubts and question has always been the elephant in the room.

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #11]

The trouble with Westboro is it doesn't come to mind for most people other than those in one side of a debate.

I think the biggest cult for most people is family.

[tam]

Peace to you,

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

• While that would be their choice, a reasonable reaction from the others would be to do all they could to dissuade them since they are gathered together on the boat to stay alive?

• If they cannot, then they would sadly met the person jump overboard and make a swim for it.

• If the fellow passengers observed the person subsequently drown or be eaten by sharks, they no doubt would be convinced of the folly of such a decision and know they must do all they can to stay together in the boat.

FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS THE TRUE RELIGION ISNT A SOCIAL CLUB IT IS THE MEANS BY WHICH GOD IS SAVING PEOPLE FROM IMMENENT DESTRUCTION

1 PETER 2:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

IT IS BIBLICALLY VIEWED AS ESSENTIAL TRUE CHRISTIANS STICK TOGETHER IN THE SAC EST PLACE POSSIBLE

HEBREWS 10:24, 25

And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near

CONCLUSION People's religious choices should always be respected and nobody should be pressured or cohersed to stay in a religion they are fully convinced is not true. That said, it is reasonable, logical and balanced reaction for those that believed they are where Gods want them to be, to try and convince those they love not to make foolish or hasty decisions , especially if those decisions risks them losing their lives.

NOTE This is not to be confused with actions taken when someone attempts to "overturn the boat" or drag others overboard with them against their will : APOSTACY

I was going to stay out of this as it's a matter for individual conscience and the individual Christian take on doctrine. I just wanted to comment on (as an aside) the analogy of the lifeboat, and how Christian apologetics analogies are like almost all Christian apologetics - flawed because they are faithbased. That is, assuming they are right as a given.

The analogy is assuming that staying in the lifeboat (the church) is the right choice. But one could equally use the analogy of the burning building. "Don't jump out of the window - you could hurt yourself". But he survives with a broken leg and everyone in the building burns.

The analogy assumes an outcome as a given and it's a cheat (1). So we have this choice. People are in a church and they see it's going to the bad. I won't go into details, but they see it. The realisation or at least moral instinct tells them to get out. The realisation probably doesn't go as far as knowing that churches are man made communities (not to say cults) and preachers are peddlers of their own opinions, not God's appointed prophets. Leaving a Church is the tip of the deconstruction iceberg where further down the slippery iceberg slope (flogging the analogy to bits) they realise it's a shake oil scam and a cult, but a lot may simply find another one to join that fits better with their own personal opinions or preferences.

And that's all from me. Back to you people presenting your personal preferences as God's true Church and good luck to you.

(1) I have been astonished at how extensive the abuse of the analogy as evidence is, and how little recognised it is.

I want to thank you for pointing out the assumption in the analogy. There is another assumption of course: that the so-called lifeboat even is the church.

The three choices that you appear to have touched on:

1 - stay in [what is assumed to be] a lifeboat
2 - leave the [assumed] lifeboat and swim to another [assumed] lifeboat in the ocean. (unfortunately, they're all tethered to the ship that is sinking)
3 - jump out of the [assumed] lifeboat (and swim - or even walk - to somewhere/someone else)

Some of these lifeboats even claim to be the one 'true' lifeboat. But in reality, these are all just various sects in the religion that calls itself "Christianity." That doesn't make one (or any) of them the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ - made up of people who are in Christ. From the analogy, that would make Christ the one true LIFEboat.


Then of course number 3 also has options of its own:

1 - Jump out of the boats (religion) and away from anything to do with Christ and God.
2 - Jump out of the boats (religion) and come TO Christ and God.


Because you can learn that religion is a scam and a lie and leave it without leaving Christ and God. Indeed, you can learn religion is a scam and a lie and leave it - so that you can instead come to Christ (the very One calling for His people to 'come out of her' and to 'come to Him') and, through Him, to God.


"Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68 (Not "where" shall we go, but "to WHOM" shall we go. YOU have the words of eternal life)

Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matt 11:28

On the last day of the feast, the great day,[Jesus] stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. John 7:37



Just wanted to make sure that option did not go unnoticed.


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

Church means gathering or group.

It actually means a little more than that. It also means a 'calling out' (ekklesia).

ἐκκλησία ekklēsía, ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

It is a compound of G1537 is described here:

STRONGS G1537:
ἐκ, before a vowel ἐξ, a preposition governing the genitive. Also, it denotes exit or emission out of, as separation from, something with which there has been close connection; opposed to the prepositions εἰς into and ἐν in: from out of, out from, forth from, from, (Latin e, ex) (cf. Winers Grammar, 364, 366f (343f); Buttmann, 326f (281)).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/

And a derivative of G2564, described here:

καλέω kaléō, kal-eh'-o; akin to the base of G2753; to "call" (properly, aloud, but used in a variety of applications, directly or otherwise):—bid, call (forth), (whose, whose sur-)name (was (called)).

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon ... jv/tr/0-1/


Like how Christ calls His people:

But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. (John 10)

Even,

"Come out of her, my people..." (Rev 18)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

• While that would be their choice, a reasonable reaction from the others would be to do all they could to dissuade them since they are gathered together on the boat to stay alive?

• If they cannot, then they would sadly met the person jump overboard and make a swim for it.

• If the fellow passengers observed the person subsequently drown or be eaten by sharks, they no doubt would be convinced of the folly of such a decision and know they must do all they can to stay together in the boat.

FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS THE TRUE RELIGION ISNT A SOCIAL CLUB IT IS THE MEANS BY WHICH GOD IS SAVING PEOPLE FROM IMMENENT DESTRUCTION

1 PETER 2:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

IT IS BIBLICALLY VIEWED AS ESSENTIAL TRUE CHRISTIANS STICK TOGETHER IN THE SAC EST PLACE POSSIBLE

HEBREWS 10:24, 25

And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near

CONCLUSION People's religious choices should always be respected and nobody should be pressured or cohersed to stay in a religion they are fully convinced is not true. That said, it is reasonable, logical and balanced reaction for those that believed they are where Gods want them to be, to try and convince those they love not to make foolish or hasty decisions , especially if those decisions risks them losing their lives.

NOTE This is not to be confused with actions taken when someone attempts to "overturn the boat" or drag others overboard with them against their will : APOSTACY

I was going to stay out of this as it's a matter for individual conscience and the individual Christian take on doctrine. I just wanted to comment on (as an aside) the analogy of the lifeboat, and how Christian apologetics analogies are like almost all Christian apologetics - flawed because they are faithbased. That is, assuming they are right as a given.

The analogy is assuming that staying in the lifeboat (the church) is the right choice. But one could equally use the analogy of the burning building. "Don't jump out of the window - you could hurt yourself". But he survives with a broken leg and everyone in the building burns.

The analogy assumes an outcome as a given and it's a cheat (1). So we have this choice. People are in a church and they see it's going to the bad. I won't go into details, but they see it. The realisation or at least moral instinct tells them to get out. The realisation probably doesn't go as far as knowing that churches are man made communities (not to say cults) and preachers are peddlers of their own opinions, not God's appointed prophets. Leaving a Church is the tip of the deconstruction iceberg where further down the slippery iceberg slope (flogging the analogy to bits) they realise it's a shake oil scam and a cult, but a lot may simply find another one to join that fits better with their own personal opinions or preferences.

And that's all from me. Back to you people presenting your personal preferences as God's true Church and good luck to you.

(1) I have been astonished at how extensive the abuse of the analogy as evidence is, and how little recognised it is.

I want to thank you for pointing out the assumption in the analogy. There is another assumption of course: that the so-called lifeboat even is the church.

The three choices that you appear to have touched on:

1 - stay in [what is assumed to be] a lifeboat
2 - leave the [assumed] lifeboat and swim to another [assumed] lifeboat in the ocean. (unfortunately, they're all tethered to the ship that is sinking)
3 - jump out of the [assumed] lifeboat (and swim - or even walk - to somewhere/someone else)

Some of these lifeboats even claim to be the one 'true' lifeboat. But in reality, these are all just various sects in the religion that calls itself "Christianity." That doesn't make one (or any) of them the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ - made up of people who are in Christ. From the analogy, that would make Christ the one true LIFEboat.


Then of course number 3 also has options of its own:

1 - Jump out of the boats (religion) and away from anything to do with Christ and God.
2 - Jump out of the boats (religion) and come TO Christ and God.


Because you can learn that religion is a scam and a lie and leave it without leaving Christ and God. Indeed, you can learn religion is a scam and a lie and leave it - so that you can instead come to Christ (the very One calling for His people to 'come out of her' and to 'come to Him') and, through Him, to God.


"Lord to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John 6:68 (Not "where" shall we go, but "to WHOM" shall we go. YOU have the words of eternal life)

Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Matt 11:28

On the last day of the feast, the great day,[Jesus] stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. John 7:37



Just wanted to make sure that option did not go unnoticed.


Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Well, yes. You point up the difficulties and different points of view. JW clearly uses the analogy to mean staying in the (JW) church because there is danger in leaving, but a different explanation of the analogy also works - leave the JWs and take your chances as the captain is eating the passengers. Analogies can break down He even uses a quotememe to make the point

"IT IS BIBLICALLY VIEWED AS ESSENTIAL TRUE CHRISTIANS STICK TOGETHER IN THE SAC EST PLACE POSSIBLE" Well some say the JW community ain't so safe, but they deny it. But as you say all the lifeboats are tied to the ship. But is it sinking? The individual has to decide. Quoting from the Bible does no good as it is expressing Dogma, not reason.

[boatsnguitars]

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

• While that would be their choice, a reasonable reaction from the others would be to do all they could to dissuade them since they are gathered together on the boat to stay alive?

• If they cannot, then they would sadly met the person jump overboard and make a swim for it.

• If the fellow passengers observed the person subsequently drown or be eaten by sharks, they no doubt would be convinced of the folly of such a decision and know they must do all they can to stay together in the boat.

The church IS like a lifeboat! (Thank you, JW for that analogy)
It's like a life boat in a 5 Star resort pool that tells people they are always in danger and that they must not leave or else! They tell everyone that even wanting to leave the lifeboat is a sin, that it's a horrible world out there, and they must repent from wanting to go to the Resort.

Don't listen to JW. As someone who has jumped out of the lifeboat, I can tell you the water is warm, the waves are gentle and there are no sharks. We have floaties, rafts, dinghies, sailboats, power boats, jet skis, surfboards, catamarans, party boats, windsurfers, house boats, tankers, cruise ships ready to pick you up. We have all kinds of food and drinks. We have volleyball and shuffleboard - or, just lay on the chair to work on your tan (or not).

Or, stay on the lifeboat and fret and worry. Eat your rations and give each other hugs as you die in despair.



Go ahead: make your choice. Choose the lifeboat, and the joyless, banal, spartan existence (I'm sure JW will show you pretty pictures of drawings of paradise that he believes you will get if you suffer in the lifeboat properly - promises, promises, promises...).
Or, come to an actual, real paradise now:

[JehovahsWitness]

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

• While that would be their choice, a reasonable reaction from the others would be to do all they could to dissuade them since they are gathered together on the boat to stay alive?

• If they cannot, then they would sadly let the person jump overboard and make a swim for it.

• If the fellow passengers observed the person subsequently drown or be eaten by sharks, they no doubt would be convinced of the folly of such a decision and know they must do all they can to stay together in the boat.

The church IS like a lifeboat! (Thank you, JW for that analogy)

You dont have to thank me, the analogy comes from the bible writer of the book of Peter, so ... thank him.

1 PETER 3:21

... God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you

The fact is that the Christian message is based on exclusivity of salvation restricted to acceptable worship of Jehovah (YHWH) God through Jesus Christ alone.

ACTS 4:10-12

let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene .... there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

PHILIPIANS 2: 9, 10

... God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground

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To read more please go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...RELIGIOUS DENOMINATIONS

[Tcg]

The fact is that the Christian message is based on exclusivity of salvation restricted to acceptable worship of Jehovah (YHWH) God through Jesus Christ alone.

No, it's not. It may be the message of one branch or branches of Christianity, but not all Christianity. There is no single clear message from the Bible what is required for salvation.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

The fact is that the Christian message is based on exclusivity of salvation restricted to acceptable worship of Jehovah (YHWH) God through Jesus Christ alone.

No, it's not. ...

Tcg

Yes it is : scriptures provided ( see Post #17 above )


JW

[Tcg]

The fact is that the Christian message is based on exclusivity of salvation restricted to acceptable worship of Jehovah (YHWH) God through Jesus Christ alone.

No, it's not. ...

Tcg

Yes it is : scriptures provided (see above)


JW

You need to address my complete statement and explain how the claimed "scriptures provided" support your claim. You'd need to then prove that all of Christianity follows the "scriptures provided." It should amount to quite a reply.



Tcg