Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

[boatsnguitars]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?

[JehovahsWitness]

DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY?

Jehovah's Witnesses are politically neutral and do not support any political ideologies. They do not participate in any social justice movements nor do they campaign or support any.





DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE THE DEATH PENALTY IS RIGHT?

Jehovahs Witnesses believe God has the right to execute those that he judges as being unworthy of life. In bible times this was reflected in the Mosaic law and the divine wars fought by his people. Since the abolishment of the Mosaic laws, divine judgement remains in Gods hands and Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe it is their place to play an active role in the execution of criminals.

We believe God is temporarily allowing human governments to exercise a measure if power. If some authorities choose to impose the death penalty that is their choice but they will be judged for injustices and excesses they cause, especially in relation to the loss if life.

HAS GOD GIVEN SECULAR GOVERNMENTS THE AUTHORITY TO ENACT THE DEATH PENALTY?

No, only He himself has the right to take a human life and he has not delegated that to any human. He has however allowed (for good reason) human govenments to exist and exercise their powers as they see fit and in such administer a measure of justice to their citizens. However the governments of the world will not escape judgement for overstepping their authority.

[JehovahsWitness]

IS IT NOT A CONTRADICTION THAT JESUS SAID TO LOVE ONES ENEMIES BUT THE GOD OF THE JEWS COMMANDED HIS PEOPLE TO KILL THEM?

No. The Israelites were acting as God's agents in executing certain nations. So it was effectively God that killed the enemy nations, they were simply instruments in His hand.
Today, God retains his right to execute the wicked in his own good time but Christians will not be used as agents to do this.

The Israelites were actually commanded to "love their neighbours" and treat the foreigners within their borders fairly.

[boatsnguitars]

DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SUPPORT THE DEATH PENALTY?

Jehovah's Witnesses are politically neutral and do not support any political ideologies. They do not participate in any social justice movements nor do they campaign or support any.

DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES BELIEVE THE DEATH PENALTY IS RIGHT?

Jehovahs Witnesses believe God has the right to execute those that he judges as being unworthy of life. In bible times this was reflected in the Mosaic law and the divine wars fought by his people. Since the abolishment of the Mosaic laws, divine judgement remains in Gods hands and Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe it is their place to play an active role in the execution of criminals.

We believe God is temporarily allowing human governments to exercise a measure if power. If some authorities choose to impose the death penalty that is their choice but they will be judged for injustices and excesses they cause, especially in relation to the loss if life.

You don't see the contradiction, do you?

You say that God has given the authority for people to enact the death penalty (which is illegal in some countries, legal in others), only that JW's don't believe they should be involved. JW's aren't the only Christians, are they? The government is made up of at least 65% Christian, Congress is 95%. Most States that perform the Death Penalty are Christian majority.

It's great that JW's believe this and that, but it has no bearing on what the Bible says, allows, or commands. JW's are a known outlier.

[boatsnguitars]

IS IT NOT A CONTRADICTION THAT JESUS SAID TO LOVE ONES ENEMIES BUT THE GOD OF THE JEWS COMMANDED HIS PEOPLE TO KILL THEM?

No. The Israelites were acting as God's agents in executing certain nations. So it was effectively God that killed the enemy nations, they were simply instruments in His hand.
Today, God retains his right to execute the wicked in his own good time but Christians will not be used as agents to do this.

The Israelites were actually commanded to "love their neighbours" and treat the foreigners within their borders fairly.

It is a contradiction. And who was doing the killing? God - or the soldiers? It was the soldiers, wasn't it?

Picture this:
You're at a baseball game with your family and friends on a lovely Saturday, the breeze is light, the birds are singing. Suddenly, a black van drives up, men in with automatic rifles start killing everyone. You see your wife, pregnant 8 months, get shot in the head. Your son on first base, cut in half by a hail of bullets. People all around you are dying. Blood everywhere. They kill everyone, even the cows in the adjacent field - but you see them grab a few of the young girls and throw them in the van.
As you desperately try to run for safety, bullets rip out your knees. You fall, and a man is standing over you, gun to your head. You say, "But why?!"
He says, "Because you're evil"

Was he sent by God?

In your view, he might be the most righteous person in this scenario because he might be following God's orders. Imagine the depravity of that kind of theodicy.

[JehovahsWitness]

It's great that JW's believe this and that, but it has no bearing on what the Bible says, allows, or commands.

All of my posts are based on scripture.




RELATED POSTS

Why didnt Jesus denounce the biblical laws that governed killing?
viewtopic.php?p=1114170#p1114170

Did Jesus not say he had not come to abolish the law [Mat 5:17] ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p965278

Should Christians repudiate the biblical laws calling for the execution of those guilty of performing homosexual acts?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p994278

Are Christians authorized to kill?
viewtopic.php?p=1114167#p1114167

Do Jehovahs Witnesses support the death penalty?
viewtopic.php?p=1114251#p1114251

Did Jesus break the law by NOT killing any homosexuals?
viewtopic.php?p=1108359#p1108359

Did the Mosaic law prohibit killing or murder?
viewtopic.php?p=1113995#p1113995

Is it not a contradiction that Christians are commanded to love their enemies but God ordered the Israelites to kill them?
viewtopic.php?p=1114252#p1114252

Is it possible those that claim God instructed them to kill are indeed acting under divine command?
viewtopic.php?p=1114268#p1114268

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

KILLING IN SCRIPTURE , BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS and .... PACIFISM ​

[JehovahsWitness]

You say that God has given the authority for people to enact the death penalty (which is illegal in some countries, legal in others)....

HAS GOD GIVEN SECULAR GOVERNMENTS THE AUTHORITY TO ENACT THE DEATH PENALTY?

No, only He himself has the right to take a human life and he has not delegated that to any human. He has however allowed (for hood reason) human govenments to exist and exercise their powers as they see fit. However the governments of the world will not escape judgement for overstepping their authority.



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

IS IT POSSIBLE GOD HAS SPOKEN TO THE PEOPLE WHO KILL OR CARRY OUT VIOLENT ACTS TODAY?

No. The God of the bible is presented as a God of order who always stays true to his word. According to his word the bible: God has given all authority (including authority to kill the wicked) ONLY to his son, the resurrected Jesus Christ. Jesus is recorded as explaining he would return in kingdom power with his angels and only then will there be divine execution. Nobody today therfore, has been commisioned by God to kill regardless of their claims to have heard "Jesus" tell them to or that they were simply following God's orders.


JW

[boatsnguitars]

It's great that JW's believe this and that, but it has no bearing on what the Bible says, allows, or commands.

All of my posts are based on scripture.

Ah, the old "I'm the TRUE Christian" gambit.... Sure... I have no doubt your views are based on the scriptures you cherry pick. As are all other Christian denominations.

I'll remind you that JW's are a distinct minority that has quite different beliefs than mainstream Christians - who also based thier beliefs on scripture... but, you claim it's not confusing........................

[boatsnguitars]

IS IT POSSIBLE GOD HAS SPOKEN TO THE PEOPLE WHO KILL OR CARRY OUT VIOLENT ACTS TODAY?

No. The God of the bible is presented as a God of order who always stays true to his word. According to his word the bible: God has given all authority (including authority to kill the wicked) ONLY to his son, the resurrected Jesus Christ. Jesus is recorded as explaining he would return in kingdom power with his angels and only then will there be divine execution. Nobody today therfore, has been commisioned by God to kill regardless of their claims to have heard "Jesus" tell them to or that they were simply following God's orders.


JW

I wish more people believed as you did. I personally find the "Command to Kill" from God in your Holy Book to be the best example of why it can't be true: No God would command people to kill, given (as I wrote in my little narrative about the baseball game) that there is no way to know if the person is killing for God or for themselves. A true God would recognize this and never do killing by proxy - or would need to.

I do have to wonder why you think it's so good that people aren't authorized to kill for God now, but for thousands of years it was just fine. I guess because you want that Eternal Life Prize so badly that you can't allow doubt to creep in about the motivations for the ancient rulers to kill people. You simply assume "God = Good" and that ends it for you. You have to shoehorn your contradictions into obviously warped Logic Pretzels.

But, hey, you're a pacifist. Great! I applaud you and wish you well in convincing the 99% of other Christians of that. Though, I still think you are woefully misguided about why you are a pacifist.

To reiterate, you view is
For the last 2000 years: It's Good that God doesn't command people to kill.
For 8000 years or more: It's Good that God commands people to kill.

And, to you, this is just part of the Dogma you have to learn to regurgitate.

[JehovahsWitness]

But, hey, you're a pacifist. Great! I applaud you and wish you well in convincing the 99% of other Christians of that.

No, I'm not a pacifist.


ARE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES PACIFISTS


No. A Pacifist believes there is never any justifiable reason to fight. Since Jesus (in his capacity as Michael the Archangel) will lead God's armies in the war of Armageddon, he himself isn't "a pacifist" and neither are Jehovahs Witnesses . That said, JWs take an entirely non-violent position with regards to our relations with others and believe Christians must never do anything to deliberately take a human life. We live peacably with all people and show love even to those that make themselves our enemies.


FURTHER READING Why Don’t Jehovah’s Witnesses Go to War?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... go-to-war/

JW



RELATED POSTS

Early Christians and military service
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p788183

Do the Divine wars in the bible authorize Christians to participate in human conflicts?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 64#p827364

What did Jesus mean by "turn the other cheek"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 50#p773650

Are Jehovah's Witnesses cowards and opportunists?
viewtopic.php?p=881988#p881988

Are Jehovah's Witnesses pacifists?
viewtopic.php?p=1114295#p1114295

Would a Christian kill someone if God commanded it?
viewtopic.php?p=1059632#p1059632

Is it possible those that claim God instructed them to kill are indeed acting under divine command?
viewtopic.php?p=1114268#p1114268

Are Christians authorized to kill?
viewtopic.php?p=1114167#p1114167

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

CHRISTIANITY , WAR and ...PACIFISM ​