Thou Shalt Not Kill? Or is it Murder?

[boatsnguitars]

We've often seen Christians defend their lust for killing (either in war, or the death penalty, or when calling to rid the world of gay people, witches, atheists, or simply wanting to nuke Islamic countries), or defending Jesus's promise to come back and start massacring all the unworthy, or defending Yahweh's genocidal rampages.

The conversation is like this:

Atheist: I thought "Thou Shalt Not Kill?" How can you be for this killing?
Christian: No! You stupid moron! The translation is "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", you ignorant twat. What? Are you for murder, you evil, reprobate?!"
Atheist: Well, you have certainly hoisted me by my own petard, fine sir, and I deserve the vicious ridicule you have so un-judgmentally beset upon me!"

But, wait. Murder is a legal term. Murder is defined by the State. In fact, different States (both States in the USA, but also countries).

In some countries it is legal to kill gay people. In some countries Honor Killing is legal.

It would not be murder to kill ones child for embarrassing you in some countries.

Did God not know this when he inspired this line? Wouldn't it make more sense to say "Kill" and simply stop all killing? But that wouldn't satisfy the patriarchy's lust to kill, does it?

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.


Thoughts?

[boatsnguitars]

You ignore, "Give to the one asking you."

You purposely edited Jesus' words.
Classic

“If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24.

I guess you only say "Lord, Lord" and not actually love Christ. That's ok. I won't judge you for it, too much. I can't speak for God, but you seem to feel comfortable doing so....

[2timothy316]

You ignore, "Give to the one asking you."

You purposely edited Jesus' words.
Classic

And you focus on one line ignoring the rest of the Bible. This is called cherry picking: even more classic.
Do you know what eisegesis is? It is what you're doing and it is a known flawed way to use the Bible and allows me to ignore your interpretations as meaningless.

“If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24.

I guess you only say "Lord, Lord" and not actually love Christ. That's ok. I won't judge you for it, too much. I can't speak for God, but you seem to feel comfortable doing so....

I do not fear your judgement at all. Heb. 13:6.
I invite Jehovah God to judge me. Do you want the same?

[Purple Knight]

Seems to me, this is an obvious case of Christians trying to make the Bible sound better than it is, without noticing it makes it worse.

I agree and this is a good example of what I call definitionalism. People are trying to take the things that either they think shouldn't count, or would be ruinous if they did count, and define them out of the term.

Some of this should occur because it's just called steelmanning. But by the time self-defence is only the first of many examples, and each time, the claimant keeps trying to refine and fine-tune the definition of some word so that all the examples that show the principle is wrong simply don't count as that word, we have definitionalism and not steelmanning.

[JehovahsWitness]

Some of this should occur because it's just called steelmanning.

STEEL MANNING

Misrepresenting the other person's position or argument so you can easily defeat it.

When presented with someone that has such a weak command of language whose position lacks solid logic, it would not be misrepresenting ( "steel manning" ) to present it as such.

When someone's argument is garbled and unfocused, I will reword what I see as the essence of their point in order to avoid producing an equally garbled unfocused response (garbage in = garbage out). I will not attibute the question to the person that that inspired it. This "steel man" allows me to address solid objection worthy, I hope of being read.

In contrast to a strawman, a steel man is an improved form of the other person's views—one that's harder to defeat.

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LOGIC , FALLACIES and ... EVIDENCE

[boatsnguitars]

You ignore, "Give to the one asking you."

You purposely edited Jesus' words.
Classic

And you focus on one line ignoring the rest of the Bible. This is called cherry picking: even more classic.
Do you know what eisegesis is? It is what you're doing and it is a known flawed way to use the Bible and allows me to ignore your interpretations as meaningless.

“If you love Me, keep My commandments … He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me … If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.” John 14:15-24.

I guess you only say "Lord, Lord" and not actually love Christ. That's ok. I won't judge you for it, too much. I can't speak for God, but you seem to feel comfortable doing so....

I do not fear your judgement at all. Heb. 13:6.
I invite Jehovah God to judge me. Do you want the same?

I heard, "Lord, Lord" from you. You know the quotes, but you just find the actual commands too difficult to follow. You are in love with your sin. That's why you edited out the one line that was relevant.

BUt, look, I started another thread to discuss this specifically.

We can return to the discussion about Killing vs. Murder.

Why don't you start by defining your terms of the two, and show in the Bible where it defines it in the way that modern law refers to it?

(As for Jehovah judging me? You will not be surprised to learn that I don't give a flying flip what a fictional character thinks of me.)

[JehovahsWitness]

Why don't you start by defining your terms of the two, and show in the Bible where it defines it in the way that modern law refers to it?

Biblical law exists apart and distinct from secular law and certainly from modern day secular law. While arguably that many secular laws derive from biblical ones, it can equally be argued that they are based on common law which is not exclusive to Judeo-christian traditions. In any case, we are often talking about two different systems and it will only lead to confusion to conflate the two. In short biblical law may classify something as murder while secular law does not and visa versa: abortion is a case in point.




JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



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[boatsnguitars]

Biblical law exists apart and distinct from secular law and certainly from modern day secular law. While arguably that many secular laws derive from biblical ones, it can equally be argued that they are based on common law which is not exclusive to Judeo-christian traditions. In any case, we are often talking about two different systems and it will only lead to confusion to conflate the two. In short biblical law may classify something as murder while secular law does not and visa versa: abortion is a case in point.

Exactly the point of my OP. Abortion is legal (or, was and is in some places... To Be Continued). But there is no mention of it in the Bible, so is it Murder, or Killing?
After all, as many point out, the Commandment expressly forbids Murder, not Killing (Though, I appreciate some Christian sects have interpreted God's thoughts differently, like the Quakers. Which really just adds the the confusion: Who speaks for God?)

So, again, where are the strict, legal (according to God's thoughts) definition of "Murder" and "Killing" and how are we to distinguish between the two?

I appreciate that the Bible only applies to those who choose to follow it, so it's not a binding document, like Secular Law. That is, we can see what happens to people who "sin" against our Secular Laws, but we can't see what happens to people who "sin" against God. We only have various sects and denominations giving their - all too human - interpretation of God's thoughts on the matter.

[JehovahsWitness]

Exactly the point of my OP. Abortion is legal (or, was and is in some places... To Be Continued). But there is no mention of it in the Bible, so is it Murder, or Killing?

According to bible law and principle, abortion is murder.
According to most secular laws abortion is NOT murder.



JW

[boatsnguitars]

According to bible law and principle, abortion is murder.
According to most secular laws abortion is NOT murder.

I don't see a law. You say it's according to Biblical Law. Quote the Bible.

What you did - again - was to give your human interpretation:

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not believe humans possess an "immortal soul".

I believe life begins at conception , the moment a sperm ferilizes a human egg and the cells begin to divide in a process that will eventually lead (if uninteruped) to the birth of a new individual, separate and distinct from his or her parents.

That's your opinion. That's not Biblical Law - unless you are claiming yourself to be a prophet?


BTW, Some people argue that the Bible allows for people to have abortions in certain circumstances.

One argument is that the Bible does not specifically mention abortion, and there is no clear prohibition against it. In fact, some passages in the Bible seem to imply that life begins at birth rather than at conception, which could suggest that abortion is permissible. For example, in Exodus 21:22-25, if a man accidentally causes a pregnant woman to miscarry, he is only required to pay a fine, whereas if he causes harm to the woman herself, he is punished severely. This seems to indicate that the life of the fetus is not considered equal to that of the woman.

Also, the Bible emphasizes the importance of free will and personal choice, which could support the idea of a woman's right to choose whether or not to have an abortion. In Deuteronomy 30:19, God presents a choice between life and death, blessings and curses, and encourages people to choose life. This passage can be interpreted as acknowledging the individual's power of choice and the responsibility that comes with it.

Furthermore, some Christians argue that in cases of rape, incest, or when the life of the mother is at risk, abortion can be a justifiable choice. They point to passages like Genesis 19:8, where Lot offers his daughters to be raped by the men of Sodom in order to protect his male guests, as an example of a difficult moral choice made in extreme circumstances.

Overall, the question of whether or not the Bible allows for people to have abortions is a matter of interpretation and personal belief. There are various arguments for and against the permissibility of abortion based on different readings of the Bible.

Also known as "Speaking for God".

[otseng]

You are in love with your sin.

You will not be surprised to learn that I don't give a flying *^% what a fictional character thinks of me.)

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