God's actions make sense?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

God's actions make sense?

Post #1

Post by FarWanderer »

bjs wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:
bjs wrote:3. It is highly improbably that this alien would travel all this distance, blend into human form and society, all to create a false religion. The entire exercise seems pointless. It would mean that this alien not only choose to interact with people while intentionally lying to them, but also specifically set up a new religion knowing that this religion was false. At this point we pass being improbable and the idea become outright ludicrous.
Weird, yes, but how are the actions of the Christian God any less inscrutable? :-k
Here I can only say that we have a fundamentally different understanding of the Christian God.
Question for debate:
Are God's actions (and inaction) more comprehensible to us than that of a hypothetical alien as the historical Jesus?

I will agree that the reasons for an alien coming to Earth in order to found a religion are pretty incomprehensible. However, I think the Christian God's actions are similarly incomprehensible.

Here I offer a list of questions for which Christians who would claim otherwise are accountable to answer. "God works in mysterious ways" and the like are not on the table this time.

Why does God allow suffering?
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Why did God permit slavery?

Anyone, feel free to add more. Should still be plenty.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22881
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #11

Post by JehovahsWitness »

FarWanderer wrote:Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
WHY DID JESUS HAVE TO DIE?

♦ ANSWER:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933

Image
JehovahsWitness wrote: INDEX: The Ransom

Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 214#852214

Why did Jesus have to die? [with video]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 775#846775

Who was the ransom paid to?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 203#852203

Why did God not just ignore the original sin?[*]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933

Original Sin [Responsibility] INDEX
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 232#852232
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22881
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #12

Post by JehovahsWitness »

FarWanderer wrote:Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death?

♦ ANSWER: Because waiting 3 hundred years would have been too long as anyone that was a personal eyewitness to Jesus' death and could therefore testify to his resurrection, would themselves be dead, and waiting only three minutes would give rise to doubts Jesus had actually died at all. A reasonable period between the two extremes was necessary and three days , in keeping with the pattern prophetically established by Jonah, was that which was chosen. One could also speculate that leaving Jesus disciples longer in fear and grief would have been cruel.


RELATED POSTS

Easter challenge 2018: Resurrection "contradictions"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 299#908299
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:48 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22881
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #13

Post by JehovahsWitness »

FarWanderer wrote:Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
WHY DID GOD ALLOW THE WICKEDNESS OF NOAHS DAY?

♦ ANSWER: For the same reason God has allowed evil and suffering in general.

Why does God allow suffering?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 722#908722


QUESTION: Why did God intervene in the days of Noah?
  • ANSWER To ensure his purpose is fulfilled. Jehovah (YHWH/God) is allowing suffering and evil for a specific reason (see links above) namely to settle the issues raised in Eden. That said, He remains the souvereign ruler of the universe and ultimate judge of all the activity therein and thus God reserves his right to intervene at any time in order to ensure his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. It was not God's will that the last righteous human family on earth be eliminated nor that the rebellious angels continue materializing and reproducing with human women. He therefore intervened.


RELATED POSTS

What were the reasons for the global flood?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 011#890011

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 975#845975
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #14

Post by Willum »

It seems to me you should be able to use the constrains of your questions to answer them:

Quotes by "FarWanderer"
bjs wrote: Why does God allow suffering?
Is suffering allowed? Yes. Why does anything allow suffering? Inability and choice.
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Did he rest? Yes. Was it required, or simply because he'd finished his work? Since he was finished, rest is likely allegorical.
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Does God create souls? The Bible says all children are a gift, it does not say he creates their souls. Since they are a gift, they are our own. However, this means life does not belong to God. So as Christians claim, he evidently allows the inseminations, and shepards the birth, but is not responsible afterwards. So, he neither creates souls, but he does know they are bound for hell. The only answer was provided by Divine Insight, when we ask WHOM God sacrificed Jesus to? The mainstream story of Christianity is that God pathetically had to make a sacrifice of his only son so that the merest fraction of humanity could be saved from damnation. So he must allow the birth of the majority of souls knowing that he has only saved a few.
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Is God omnipotent? Obviously not, is he omnipotent to within the parameters of our perception and ability to express in writing? Let's go with that. If that is so, there must be a creature higher than him to which Jesus must be sacrificed, so that a fraction of a fraction of us could live.
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
As intimated above, there must be another power that God is unable to stop, mucking with his designs, and his powers of response are only extreme, inelegant, and impossible ones.
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
It must have been, quite simply, God was unable to prevent him, as he was unable to stop the creation of Nephilim.*
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Does he reveal himself? Or is it more likely that these prophets are mentally instable? By all modern evidence, we must conclude these people are infinitely more likely to be suffering from hallucinations and delusions.
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Was there a resurrection? We have no more evidence for it, than we do Tom Thumb or King Arthur. It is essentially impossible, and definitely unnecessary, and the key easy bit of evidence, Lazarus' testament about his death and resurrection, is lacking. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude, it is fiction,
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
In nature, we find strength in diversity, so, without a positive conclusion available from the Bible, and finding an answer readily from demonstrable reality, we should conclude talent is a result of evolution, not magic.
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
The story of Job is an adaptation of a polytheistic story, where two gods vied for Job, you should dismiss it from Christian cannon.
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Obviously one may modify Epicurus' below to answer this one - Is God willing to spread the word, but not able?...
Why did God permit slavery?
God does not permit slavery, he condones it. Why does God condone slavery? He must not think it is evil.


* = Although Nephilim means something ridiculous in Hebrew, it simply means 'love-child' in Greek, (Nee = born, Phil = love, so, the flood story is easily interpreted in Greek to say the world had become over-run with children born out of wed-lock, who needed to be killed by this God.

[Replying to post 13 by JehovahsWitness]
WHY DID GOD ALLOW THE WICKEDNESS OF NOAHS DAY?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
-Epicurious

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 12737
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 443 times
Been thanked: 467 times

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #15

Post by 1213 »

FarWanderer wrote:Why does God allow suffering?
But what difference does it make, if you get all the answers? I don’t believe it makes any difference, but I answer still.

And the answer for that first question is, because people wanted to know evil.
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Rest has two meanings, stop doing something, like for example hammer can be put to rest, or sleeping. God rested means He stopped to create.
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Because he loves also those who hate Him. Evil people should be thankful that they got this chance.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45
FarWanderer wrote:Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
It was not according to the Bible.
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Maybe because it made possible to have something good.
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Because freedom is good, all though modern fascistic governments hate it.
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Because it is not useful to do it to all.
FarWanderer wrote:Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why not?
FarWanderer wrote:Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
I don’t think that is true.
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
God didn’t make a bet. Satan tested Job, because he didn’t believe God and wanted to prove that all knowing God is wrong. Maybe God allowed that, because He knew Job survives and it will be good example for later people about the evilness of Satan and about that we should not fear, because God is greatest.
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Maybe because people don’t want to listen. Also, if the message is, love your neighbor as yourself, why would there be need to something more than written word? Would you suddenly begin to love, if God would tell it directly to you?
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God permit slavery?
Originally it seems to have been same as modern worker. I don’t see why working should be forbidden. And if it is really a problem, why modern people have to pay taxes or interests, those are forms of slavery?
My new book can be read freely from here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rIkqxC ... xtqFY/view

Old version can be read from here:
http://web.archive.org/web/202212010403 ... x_eng.html

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #16

Post by FarWanderer »

[Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Hi JW. I am impressed by your diligence.

1)
Regarding the allowance of suffering. You appealed to a greater good that can come through suffering. I do not think this is a bad point, however I do wonder why Satan might think that God is not good. Why would anyone who knows of God's existence rebel against him? And especially why would they ever think they could get away with it?

2)
Regarding God's rest. I acknowledge that resting in this case does not mean to get tired. But that just makes the act of resting all the more puzzling. Or, even the spreading out of the work into stages for that matter.

3)
Regarding the permission of slavery. I did not mean "permit" in the sense that he did not intervene, but in the sense that he did not condemn. Why does God refrain from calling slavery a moral evil?

4)
Regarding Job. The explanation you offer works in Job's case, but it raises another problem- one that Job himself observes and never gets a clear answer about- why do some people suffer/prosper more than others?

Also an aside, I think Job's story is very interesting because one of the main morals of the story is more or less my assertion in the OP- that God's actions are beyond human understanding. I actually find it interesting that Theists want to argue against this point.

5)
Regarding the necessity of Jesus being sacrificed. You make an appeal to the necessity of punishment in order for a law to be worthy of respect. I agree with that much, but I do not deem a law that accepts vicarious punishment to be worthy of respect.

6)
Regarding the choice of 3 days for the Resurrection. Given that no one observed Jesus's body after the day of his death, any additional days beyond that would not change the plausibility of him having still been alive.

7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?

User avatar
FarWanderer
Guru
Posts: 1617
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
Location: California

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #17

Post by FarWanderer »

1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God allow suffering?
But what difference does it make, if you get all the answers?
None, personally. It's an intellectual exercise, and perhaps an opportunity to understand how a great number of my fellow human beings (Christians) think.
1213 wrote:And the answer for that first question is, because people wanted to know evil.
I like this answer very much, actually. Though I do still think it's hard to make sense of natural disasters or child diseases.
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Rest has two meanings, stop doing something, like for example hammer can be put to rest, or sleeping. God rested means He stopped to create.
Yeah I get it. Still puzzled as to why he would stop just to "bless" the 7th day.
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Because he loves also those who hate Him. Evil people should be thankful that they got this chance.
Thankful for their chance to go to Hell?
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
It was not according to the Bible.
This is an interesting response. Could you elaborate?
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Maybe because it made possible to have something good.
This strikes me as a variation of "God works in mysterious ways".

I could equally say that an alien played the role of Jesus because "It gave him an outcome he wanted".
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Because freedom is good, all though modern fascistic governments hate it.
But then we have our freedom taken from us if and when we go to Hell.
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Because it is not useful to do it to all.
How so? It seems to me that God would want the maximum possible audience.
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why not?
Because it's weaker evidence. For one, it means no one observes the Resurrection itself, which makes it more suspect, and two, it results in only his followers witnessing the empty tomb, which again makes it more suspect.

The only people who witnessed anything related to the empty tomb that weren't Jesus's followers before his death were the two Roman guards. You have to wonder why they, instead of converting to Christianity, accepted a bribe to spread a lie about the disciples stealing the body.
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
I don’t think that is true.
You don't think the talent distribution between gold medal Olympians and your average couch potato seem arbitrary?
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
God didn’t make a bet. Satan tested Job, because he didn’t believe God and wanted to prove that all knowing God is wrong. Maybe God allowed that, because He knew Job survives and it will be good example for later people about the evilness of Satan and about that we should not fear, because God is greatest.
I don't understand why Satan would think he could get away with anything.
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Maybe because people don’t want to listen.
But they would read Scripture instead?
1213 wrote:Also, if the message is, love your neighbor as yourself, why would there be need to something more than written word? Would you suddenly begin to love, if God would tell it directly to you?
If the message were that simple, we would need far less than the written word.

And no, I would not suddenly love anyone just because they said something to me directly, but how indirectly telling it to me through a book be any better?
1213 wrote:
FarWanderer wrote:Why did God permit slavery?
Originally it seems to have been same as modern worker. I don’t see why working should be forbidden. And if it is really a problem, why modern people have to pay taxes or interests, those are forms of slavery?
Haha, indeed. Libertarians often say taxation is theft, and they are not exactly wrong.

However, I can't quite see an obligation to a state as the same as being owned by another individual.

peterk
Student
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:25 am
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #18

Post by peterk »

FarWanderer wrote:
Question for debate:
Are God's actions (and inaction) more comprehensible to us than that of a hypothetical alien as the historical Jesus?

I will agree that the reasons for an alien coming to Earth in order to found a religion are pretty incomprehensible. However, I think the Christian God's actions are similarly incomprehensible.

Here I offer a list of questions for which Christians who would claim otherwise are accountable to answer. "God works in mysterious ways" and the like are not on the table this time.

Why does God allow suffering?
Why did God, omnipotent, rest on the 7th day?
Why does God create souls that he knows are bound for Hell?
Why was Jesus's sacrifice necessary for an omnipotent God?
Why did God let things get so bad that he had to flood the whole world? Why didn't he intervene earlier?
Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
Why does God only reveal himself to very select people in very select times?
Why did Jesus's Resurrection have to happen 3 days after his death? Why wait for it to happen behind closed doors?
Why is the talent distribution among humans so seemingly arbitrary?
Why did God test Job? Why would he make a bet with Satan?
Why does God use Scripture to spread his word, instead of speaking to us directly?
Why did God permit slavery?

Anyone, feel free to add more. Should still be plenty.
My general answer to the OP is that we should expect balance, expect God's actions to be both comprehensible and incomprehensible. If the Christian God is rational then his actions will be rational, and his creation will be rational. Therefore it is perfectly fair for the OP to ask questions such as those listed. But it's also true that the Christian God is limitless by nature, so we should also expect elements of mystery, story lines which take us by surprise.

The idea of the Trinity is a good example of this. It would be more comprehensible to us if there were only one God. It also would be more comprehensible if there were three distinct and equal Gods. But a God who can be three and one at the same time? Based on my readings and thoughts over the years, I think the Trinity is beyond reason, but not contradictory to reason. It is coherent, but at a level of reality higher than ours. So the best we can do is by means of poetry and metaphor explore ways in which it could be rational.

In this respect I'm reminded of the quote by J B Haldane: "My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose."

The list of specific questions is hard to address as a whole unit. It's easy to ask a one sentence question about God and suffering, but whole books have been written on the subject. So a serious reply would not be short. I would try to deal with one or two topics at most as an illustration of possible approaches to the subject. Whether that's enough to satisfy others...

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 22881
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 897 times
Been thanked: 1337 times
Contact:

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #19

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Why does God allow suffering?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 722#908722
FarWanderer wrote: 1)Regarding the allowance of suffering. You appealed to a greater good that can come through suffering. I do not think this is a bad point ...
FarWanderer wrote: ... however I do wonder why Satan might think that God is not good.
ANSWER: Whether Satan really believes God (YHWH/Jehovah) to be "good" or not, we cannot say, what we can say the challenged God's goodness. Why? He knew it would be the most expedient way to achieve his (Satan's) own goal of world domination.


Satan raised the issue of God's right to rule. He also questioned called into question the motives of all potential subjects of that rule, implying strongly that Jehovah was in fact exercising his rulership (souvereignty) in an unfit manner. These two points (as the links and the videos provided explain in detail for those wishing to really understand the question) became the central issue that were to dictate the direction of human history from the point of rebellion onwards.

CONCLUSION Jesus testified that that Satan is in fact a liar, so we might reasonably assumed that Satan in fact knows that God is "good" and his rulership beneficial but that he (Satan) has no love of goodness and does not hesitate to dupe individuals by lying on the matter of God's goodness to achieve his own aims.

RELATED POSTS

Why did God allow Satan into the Garden of Eden?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 23#p908723

Why did God not destroy Satan when he rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p845975
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Pipiripi
Banned
Banned
Posts: 269
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:22 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: God's actions make sense?

Post #20

Post by Pipiripi »

FarWanderer wrote: [Replying to post 4 by JehovahsWitness]

Hi JW. I am impressed by your diligence.

1)
Regarding the allowance of suffering. You appealed to a greater good that can come through suffering. I do not think this is a bad point, however I do wonder why Satan might think that God is not good. Why would anyone who knows of God's existence rebel against him? And especially why would they ever think they could get away with it?

2)
Regarding God's rest. I acknowledge that resting in this case does not mean to get tired. But that just makes the act of resting all the more puzzling. Or, even the spreading out of the work into stages for that matter.

3)
Regarding the permission of slavery. I did not mean "permit" in the sense that he did not intervene, but in the sense that he did not condemn. Why does God refrain from calling slavery a moral evil?

4)
Regarding Job. The explanation you offer works in Job's case, but it raises another problem- one that Job himself observes and never gets a clear answer about- why do some people suffer/prosper more than others?

Also an aside, I think Job's story is very interesting because one of the main morals of the story is more or less my assertion in the OP- that God's actions are beyond human understanding. I actually find it interesting that Theists want to argue against this point.

5)
Regarding the necessity of Jesus being sacrificed. You make an appeal to the necessity of punishment in order for a law to be worthy of respect. I agree with that much, but I do not deem a law that accepts vicarious punishment to be worthy of respect.

6)
Regarding the choice of 3 days for the Resurrection. Given that no one observed Jesus's body after the day of his death, any additional days beyond that would not change the plausibility of him having still been alive.

7)
Regarding the Flood. What makes God's intervention in Noah's time any less tyrannical than if he intervened in the Garden of Eden?

My friend I will write for you a little about why God allows suffering.

Post Reply