How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

[otseng]

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:

How can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?

The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.

For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

----------

Thread Milestones

• Case study of Hezekiah
• Start discussing global flood / Flood Model summary
• Recap arguments of authority of the Bible
• Start discussing Tower of Babel / Tower of Babel summary
• Start discussing archaeology / Philosophy of science / Origin of alphabet / End of discussion on archaeology
• Start discussing cosmology / Concluding cosmology
• Start discussing Shroud of Turin / Summary top TS imaging theories / Created DefendingChristianity.com and TS subforums / Shroud of Turin summary
• Start discussing Bible and resurrection
• Start discussing the Messiahship of Jesus / Messiahship of Jesus wrap up
• Start discussing Old Testament ethics
• Summary argument of atheism and morality / God basis for objective morality
• Start discussing genocide / Genocide summary argument
• Start discussing slavery / Slavery summary argument
• Start discussing homosexuality / Homosexuality summary argument
• Old Testament ethics summary argument
• Start discussing philosophy / Summary argument on philosophy
• Start discussing creation of universe

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to alexxcJRO in post #3871]

And that is because it was conjured by ignorant ancient morons.

Moderator Comment

In keeping with the fundamental "keep it civil" rule of the forum, please refrain from statements that refer to individuals or groups as "morons" (or similar disparaging terms).

Please review the forum Rules.

______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics..

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #3900

First, the men who wrote the Bible did not claim they were inspired by and large. Now and again a prophet spoke from God to the people who were usually in deep sin and needed correction. That necessitated authority although it is easy for a reader to see that what they were saying was vital to avoid disaster. The decision that the pieces were inspired was made by the READER, not the writer.

Does a word from God need to be perfect? Does this mean there can be no spelling errors? What about grammar and punctuation? A friend of mine bought a Bible and it has two books of Proverbs and no Psalms. How can this be in a perfect book? Was the donkey perfect when God spoke through him? Believers at the least can usually recall messages they heard from a speaker that spoke so strongly to them, it was God speaking through the person. Were they then expected to be perfect? Did everything that proceeded from the speaker show itself to be perfect?

A book which doesn't claim to be true has no grounds on which to denounce any other book as false.

Where does the Bible say all other books are false?

[alexxcJRO]

It's not a straw man. What I'm showing is your logic has to be consistent. Otherwise you're just special pleading.

Q: Why? Please show it?
Explain.
The answer will reveal the straw man.
Waiting.

More reassertions of claims without any supporting argumentation or evidence.

A. Claim: "God the ultimate being is punishing moral agents together with moral agents countless times in the Bible."

"God the ultimate being punishes some for the sins of others"

Yahweh punishes the Amalek including the non-moral agents for attacking the Israelites and /or because of " all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods".
Yahweh punishes the non-moral agents together with the moral agents in the Flood story because " for the earth is filled with violence because of them".
Yahweh punishes the non-moral agents together with the moral agents from Samaria because they " have rebelled against their God".
Yahweh punishes the non-moral agents together with the moral agents in the Exodus story because the Egyptians did not let the Israelites go and because "against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments".
Yahweh punishes others:70,000 people for the sin of one man: David.

"16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)

"Now go, attack the Amalekites. Destroy everything that belongs to them as an offering to the Lord. Don’t let anything live. Put to death men and women, children and small babies. Kill the cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”(1 Samuel 15:3)
“13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[a] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[c] high all around.[d] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.”(Genesis 6:13-17)

"The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”[a]”(Hosea 13:16)

"For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and fatally strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the human firstborn to animals; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am Yahweh.""(Exodus 12:12)

"Judgment for David’s Sin
7 God was very displeased with the census, and he punished Israel for it. 8 Then David said to God, “I have sinned greatly by taking this census. Please forgive my guilt for doing this foolish thing.”
9 Then the Lord spoke to Gad, David’s seer. This was the message: 10 “Go and say to David, ‘This is what the Lord says: I will give you three choices. Choose one of these punishments, and I will inflict it on you.’”
11 So Gad came to David and said, “These are the choices the Lord has given you. 12 You may choose three years of famine, three months of destruction by the sword of your enemies, or three days of severe plague as the angel of the Lord brings devastation throughout the land of Israel. Decide what answer I should give the Lord who sent me.”
13 “I’m in a desperate situation!” David replied to Gad. “But let me fall into the hands of the Lord, for his mercy is very great. Do not let me fall into human hands.”
14 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel, and 70,000 people died as a result. 15 And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But just as the angel was preparing to destroy it, the Lord relented and said to the death angel, “Stop! That is enough!” At that moment the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Araunah[a] the Jebusite.
16 David looked up and saw the angel of the Lord standing between heaven and earth with his sword drawn, reaching out over Jerusalem. So David and the leaders of Israel put on burlap to show their deep distress and fell face down on the ground. 17 And David said to God, “I am the one who called for the census! I am the one who has sinned and done wrong! But these people are as innocent as sheep—what have they done? O Lord my God, let your anger fall against me and my family, but do not destroy your people.” "(1 Chronicles 21:7-16)


"5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Exodus 20:5-6)


B. Claim: "God the ultimate being has favorites and commands some to inflict suffering and commit genocides on others."

"6 For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession."(Deuteronomy 7:6-8)
"4 For the Lord has chosen Jacob to be his own,
Israel to be his treasured possession."(Psalm 135:4)

"For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."(Deuteronomy 14:2)

"Now go, attack the Amalekites. Destroy everything that belongs to them as an offering to the Lord. Don’t let anything live. Put to death men and women, children and small babies. Kill the cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”(1 Samuel 15:3)

"16 However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)


C. Claim: "God the ultimate being is homophobic."

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."(Leviticus 18:22 )
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."(Leviticus 20:13 )
"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."(Jude 1:7)

D. Claim: "God the ultimate being punishes moral agents with infinite punishment in Hell for finite sins."

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)
"These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, "(2 Thessalonians 1:9)
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; (Matthew 25:41)
"of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment."(Hebrews 6:2)
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”(Matthew 25:46)
"Conclusion
These Bible verses paint a vivid and sobering picture of hell as a place of torment, darkness, separation, destruction, and eternal punishment. It is described as a destination reserved for the devil and his angels, but also warns of the possibility of human souls being condemned there. As believers, we should strive to avoid this terrible fate by seeking God's grace and mercy, living a life that is pleasing to Him, and sharing the gospel message with others."
https://www.biblelyfe.com/blog/bible-verses-about-hell

E. Claim: "God the ultimate being is inflicting countless suffering to the innocent countless times."

"They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open.”[a]”(Hosea 13:16)
"For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and fatally strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the human firstborn to animals; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am Yahweh.""(Exodus 12:12)
"17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.”(Genesis 6:17)
"Then God rains sulfur and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah and all the Plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground" (Genesis 19:24–25).
"Now go, attack the Amalekites. Destroy everything that belongs to them as an offering to the Lord. Don’t let anything live. Put to death men and women, children and small babies. Kill the cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”(1 Samuel 15:3)

We have the innocent: infants, unborn babies, non-human animals, the severely mentally impaired from birth suffering and dying horrible death from being slammed against the ground after being ripped from the belly of pregnant women, killing them through plagues, drowning them, burning them alive and so on.


F. Claim: "God the ultimate being does not know multiple times in the Bible about several things where the verses clearly say he tests things, check things, is ignorant of ridiculous things."

Ignorance:

"8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”" (Genesis 3:8-13)

"20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”"(Genesis 18:20-21)
"The Tower of Babel
11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward,[a] they found a plain in Shinar b] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth."
(Genesis 11:1-9)
"Jacob Wrestles With God
22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[a] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,b] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”"(Genesis 32:22-30)

"9 God came to Balaam and asked, “Who are these men with you?”
10 Balaam said to God, “Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, sent me this message: 11 ‘A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.’”
12 But God said to Balaam, “Do not go with them. You must not put a curse on those people, because they are blessed.”"(Numbers 22:9-12)

Testing:

"Worshiping Other Gods
13 [a]If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you."
(Deuteronomy 13:1-5)

"Do Not Forget the Lord
8 Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land the Lord promised on oath to your ancestors. 2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands."(Deuteronomy 8:1-2)

"31 But when envoys were sent by the rulers of Babylon to ask him about the miraculous sign that had occurred in the land, God left him to test him and to know everything that was in his heart."(2 Chronicles 32:31)

G. Claim: "God the ultimate being is jealous, angry, capricious and regretful."

"For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14)
"For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."(Deuteronomy 4:24)
"for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."(Deuteronomy 6:15)
"For they provoked Him with their high places
And aroused His jealousy with their graven images."(Psalm 78:58)
"How long, O Lord? Will You be angry forever?
Will Your jealousy burn like fire?"(Psalm 79:5)

"Even at Horeb you provoked the Lord to wrath, and the Lord was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you."(Deuteronomy 9:8)
"So the Lord’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the entire generation of those who had done evil in the sight of the Lord was destroyed."(Numbers 32:13)
"So the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and He gave them continually into the hand of Hazael king of Aram, and into the hand of Ben-hadad the son of Hazael."(2 Kings 13:3)
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And He *said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a robbers’ den.”"(Matthew 21:12-13)
"Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it."(Isaiah 13:9)
"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"(Matthew 3:7)
"So the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them from His sight; none was left except the tribe of Judah."(2 Kings 17:18)
"When God heard, He was filled with wrath
And greatly abhorred Israel;"(Psalm 78:59)


"6 The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."(Genesis 6:6)
"The Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
(Genesis 6:7)
“I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands.” And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the Lord all night."
(1 Samuel 15:11)

Then likewise animals do not engage in gay sex.

But they do.
Its not like with torture where one needs the mentioned mental faculties.
One can engage in gay sex without the above mentioned mental faculties. Its about sexual instinct where highly cognitive functions, higher consciousness forms are not required.

[Mae von H]

So the way out is to drop the man made measure of "perfect in every way"...(sounds like Mary Poppins) and accept that the Word of God is true. What is the difference? Perfect puts a requirement on the piece whereas as "true" puts a requirement on the person accepting it. Is it not easy to see why men prefer to put the high requirement on the book instead of themselves? Atheists like that inerrancy doctrine because it is easy to superficially shoot it down. (Real scholarship shows these not to be errors but that takes some learning.) Believers like that doctrine because it takes the heat off of them actually DOING what the book says. They just need to believe that leather-bound book on the shelf is perfect and defend it vigorously, but they don't themselves need to restrict their choices in accordance with what it says. See why that is preferable?

These claims are hopelessly confused and self contradictory and include the logical fallacy of equivocation.

They certainly aren’t and you haven’t established that they are.

"Perfect" comes from the myth that a perfect 'god' is the genesis of the writing.

Please give us a passage that says a perfect God is the genesis of this writing. Otherwise your position is illogical and simply made up. A strawman argument.

A publisher's typo or a scrivener's error is a separate topic. It is Christians, not atheists who claim the Bible as intended by God, has no errors.

Some do out of ignorance. We claim it is true and it is. That was what I wrote.

You can't have it both ways and complain the Bible comes from God and also blame its many HUGE CLAIMS THAT CONTRADICT FACT, are not from God.

Again the strawman argument. You could at least get the position of the opposition before attacking what we don’t claim anyway.

If MAN is responsible for such erroneous claims, or whichever ones you want to blame men for, the result is an untrustyworthy document.

Have you never heard of ignorant erroneous claims? Does that necessitate that documents are untrustworthy. How about the obvious instead? That Man can be untrustworthy fits real life.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to Mae von H in post #3900]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "So the way out is to drop the man made measure of "perfect in every way"...(sounds like Mary Poppins) and accept that the Word of God is true. What is the difference? Perfect puts a requirement on the piece whereas as "true" puts a requirement on the person accepting it"

Is there really a difference here? It sounds good and well done for writing it. Didn't you just 'shift the blame', and nothing else? It's like shuffling on a chair!

Look at this example!

The Rules of the Road are not perfect, but they are true.???

Fair enough question so let’s examine your point.

How are the rules of the road true? Do you know they are not even the same around the world? It’s that like saying an orange is true? There’s no standardized measure.

The Bible has explanatory power. That is, it explains why we are the way we are and that explanation matches real life. The rules of the road in England don’t explain how people drive in the US. So they aren’t “true” in the sense of explaining driving everywhere.

The Bible isn’t a set of rules. It does have wise suggestions for a better life and society. When it says, do xyz and abc will result, it works. Road rules will also make for a better society in general but these vary greatly and are limited in scope and of value. Road rules are of no value if there are no roads or vehicles, for example.

------
Hello Mae von H

Even on a simple level, with the analogous example, your steps do not work. The Bible is like The Rules of the Road, it has a myriad of variants. I use KJV, but apart from that OT Scripture is the bedrock for the Torah, the Koran, the Holy Bible, the....it is as proliferated as are travel brochures.
Try moving around anywhere without referencing its precepts and you will end up in A&E..

Let us dig slightly deeper and consider the element of trust that is half of the Opening Post's reference.
Do I trust The Rules of the Road and are they True? Yes, I do!

There are two junctions near my house where adherence to their maxims is impractically absurd. The bottom line here is that they generally work and are fit for purpose. They have stood the test of time
as they say. They allow for vehicle transport to exist in a modern world and they are intrinsic to our modern existence.
Consider further, Mae von H, would you trust a gun that misfires once every one thousand times. If it was for vermin control I might persist with it, but if i was volunteering as a mercenary in Ukraine's Armed Forces, I would dump it.

In the same way the Bible can be deemed trustworthy or not. There are many invaluable insights to be gleaned from this wonderful book. However, if you want to use it as a propaganda brief towards your own ends, it will backfire on you.

Just like The Rules of the Road, this Book's trustworthiness is contingent on the good will and considered consensus of it's users. There must be serious respect given to people who choose to move about in a less orthodox fashion. This road is public!

Would you follow the “rules of the road” in front of your house in England? How about in Germany? How about Manila?

The Bible is just not the rules of the road. The rules of the road where you live don’t require you not to verbally abuse other drivers or your passengers. The rules don’t care. They don’t require generosity. They only keep passengers evil and good, safe from damage if all follow them. This is an extremely poor analogy to the Bible.

The OT is not the “bedrock” for the Koran. That work was generated with a smattering of OT knowledge by the author but deviated as it suited his purpose.

These are only side issues, but I’ve traveled quite a bit and to use your “rules of the road” as a likeness is way off since some places have no road rules since they don’t have roads.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You are trying desperately to extricate the Bible from my simple 'The Rules of the Road' analogy. You are making a mess of this attempt but nevertheless I will insist on you doing it yourself. Get yourself off this hook if you can.

You "Would you follow the “rules of the road” in front of your house in England? How about in Germany? How about Manila?"

Yes(covered previously) Post 3907.. The Bible is like The Rules of the Road, it has a myriad of variants. I use KJV, but apart from that OT Scripture is the bedrock for the Torah, the Koran, the Holy Bible, the....it is as proliferated as are travel brochures.

You -"The Bible is just not the rules of the road. The rules of the road where you live don’t require you not to verbally abuse other drivers or your passengers. The rules don’t care. They don’t require generosity. They only keep passengers evil and good, safe from damage if all follow them. "

The Rules of the Road depend on civility and co-operation.The Bible should be a refuge for both the 'Evil' and the 'Good'. Sick people need doctors, a guy once said.

You - "The OT is not the “bedrock” for the Koran. That work was generated with a smattering of OT knowledge by the author but deviated as it suited his purpose."

Wrong Islam is an Abrahamic Faith(Abraham), and so is Judaism which you conveniently failed to include.

You - "These are only side issues, but I’ve traveled quite a bit and to use your “rules of the road” as a likeness is way off since some places have no road rules since they don’t have roads."

Wrong The Bible is for everyone, but it is not everywhere. Many places are secular hotspots or are simply oblivious to the Bible's attached importance .

Keep wriggling ,Mae von H.

[otseng]

The answer to my first question takes me back to my prior point. Which is basically, "because he says so." How is this not (might makes right)?

We've covered this many times...

POI Simplified... It's 'right' because God says so, or, it's right because of other reasons (which does not need God).

Wrong simplification. It's right because it's God's nature.

POI I know. I did. It relates to "might makes right." If one violates God's nature, God may punish them.

If you attack claims that I have not made, then isn't that a straw man?

But let's go with your argument. What is wrong with punishing someone who violates objective morality? Isn't that what the state does? If someone murders or steals or rapes, they are punished.

Also, God does not punish people every time they violate objective morality. So, there is no might or punishment in these cases.

Now, if you're referring to "might" as authority instead of punishment, then I agree with you. In all cases authority would apply.

And second, you then need to explain why this objective moral law giver's objective moral pronouncements are not merely appealing to "might makes right"?

It's not might makes right, but God's being and nature makes it right.

Bottom line, the argument is not "might makes right", but it's only what you have been repeatedly asserting. To attack a position that I do not claim and only you construct is a straw man argument.

This is also related to the Euthyphro dilemma. The dilemma states, "Is good and just because God wills it or whether God wills it because it is good and just?" But this is a false dilemma because God does not "will" or decide on what is good and just. Instead good and just flows from God himself and his nature.

Jonathan Sacks wrote, "In Judaism, the Euthyphro dilemma does not exist." Jewish philosophers Avi Sagi and Daniel Statman criticized the Euthyphro dilemma as "misleading" because "it is not exhaustive": it leaves out a third option, namely that God "acts only out of His nature."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

Even if God decided something to be right, it is authority that would make it right, not necessarily might.

[otseng]

Animals who are non-moral agents do not actually "murder", "torture" or "rape" or be "immoral" although they may be killing in horrific ways their prey or have aggressive mating behavior.
They lack the necessary tools mentioned above.

Then likewise animals do not engage in gay sex.

I disagree with both these claims.

I'm simply using alexxcJRO's argument to make a similar claim. Also, I'm distinguishing between "gay" and "male on male". I'm using the term gay in the modern sense of male same-sex orientation. Are any animals gay based on this definition?

What animals do not have are myths about certain behaviors being 'immoral' simply because of animal constructed 'morality' based on tradition or imagined gods.

No idea what you're claiming here. Of course animals do not have myths. The questions are:
1. Are animals moral creatures?
2. If they are amoral creatures, how can human morality be derived from animal behavior?

[otseng]

It's not a straw man. What I'm showing is your logic has to be consistent. Otherwise you're just special pleading.

Q: Why? Please show it?
Explain.
The answer will reveal the straw man.

Here's what you stated:

What I said is that skeptics do not say God is immoral or ought to behave in a certain manner but that the concept presented is illogical-contradictory.

Yet you also stated:

God the ultimate being is punishing moral agents together with moral agents countless times in the Bible.
God the ultimate being punishes some for the sins of others.
God the ultimate being has favorites and commands some to inflict suffering and commit genocides on others.
God the ultimate being is homophobic.
God the ultimate being punishes moral agents with infinite punishment in Hell for finite sins.
God the ultimate being is inflicting countless suffering to the innocent countless times.
God the ultimate being does not know multiple times in the Bible about several things where the verses clearly say he tests things, check things, is ignorant of ridiculous things.
God the ultimate being is jealous, angry, capricious and regretful.

These are moral judgments and also implying how God ought to act. God should not punish, or not have favorites, or not be homophobic, or not be jealous, etc.

So even though you claim it's purely on logical grounds, you have used moral grounds to make your case, which is contrary to your claim.

Yahweh punishes the Amalek including the non-moral agents for attacking the Israelites and /or because of " all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods".

Right, God punished them for their sins.

Yahweh punishes the non-moral agents together with the moral agents in the Flood story because " for the earth is filled with violence because of them".

There is no such thing as "punishing" an amoral agent.

Judgment for David’s Sin

Yes, even in David's case sin was punished.

B. Claim: "God the ultimate being has favorites and commands some to inflict suffering and commit genocides on others."

Yes, God chose Israel as His people. And yes, God does not treat everyone equally.

C. Claim: "God the ultimate being is homophobic.

No, God is not homophobic. What God is against is male on male sex acts.

D. Claim: "God the ultimate being punishes moral agents with infinite punishment in Hell for finite sins."

If atheists don't even believe in a hell, why does it matter?

E. Claim: "God the ultimate being is inflicting countless suffering to the innocent countless times."

Punishment for sins is justified.

F. Claim: "God the ultimate being does not know multiple times in the Bible about several things where the verses clearly say he tests things, check things, is ignorant of ridiculous things."

In regards to the garden of Eden, of course God knew what happened. In the other cases you mentioned, it uses anthropomorphic or metaphorical language to describe God's actions.

G. Claim: "God the ultimate being is jealous, angry, capricious and regretful."

Yes, God can be jealous, angry, and regretful. Not so sure about capricious.

Then likewise animals do not engage in gay sex.

But they do.
Its not like with torture where one needs the mentioned mental faculties.
One can engage in gay sex without the above mentioned mental faculties. Its about sexual instinct where highly cognitive functions, higher consciousness forms are not required.

Isn't that more special pleading? Only in the case of sexual acts "higher cognitive functions" are not required? Are you saying sex is purely animalistic instincts and require no cognitive decision making?

[POI]

Otseng's claim --> Gay sex IS wrong. Let's test this....

************************************************

Otseng Bottom line, the argument is not "might makes right", but it's only what you have been repeatedly asserting. To attack a position that I do not claim and only you construct is a straw man argument.

This is also related to the Euthyphro dilemma. The dilemma states, "Is good and just because God wills it or whether God wills it because it is good and just?" But this is a false dilemma because God does not "will" or decide on what is good and just. Instead good and just flows from God himself and his nature.

POI Stay with me here. I'm not offering a strawman. See the part, near the bottom, in red. Let's start with a short video from Frank T. He explains the same argument well in this video. But then his position falls apart at minute 2 and beyond. Watch carefully:



He states the argument is a false dilemma because the position is not (A or not A), he states its instead A, B, or C, and "God IS the standard" becomes option C. He basically just asserts a third option, without proof. And of course, the Bible God, not any other claimed holy text, becomes that 3rd option. The Bible God hates Gay sex! Therefore, Gay sex is bad!

For which I respond with the following:



So I ask anew... Please tell us WHY gay sex is wrong without becoming circular -- (by using "God" in your argument)?

One of your prior responses gives reasons outside God's say-so, as to why gay sex is bad. But, as the video above explains, you rejected those already given arguments the second you claim morals are subjective without God.

********************

You may want to know my position. Well, it's simple. I do not know if morals are objective or subjective? Thus far, they may be merely subjective. If this is the case, then God is offering his subjective opinion. And the only reason(s) I should follow HIS opinion is because (might makes right). Why? Because it is 'in his nature (even if it disagrees with mine)', 'he creates', and 'he has more power'. All such reason(s) apply to the 'might makes right' position.

If "God's nature" was to state gay sex is right, does this mean gay sex is right?