Is it reasonable to believe in God?

[historia]

Is it reasonable to believe in God?

Note, the question here is not whether you think it is true that God exists, but simply whether such a belief is reasonable or not.

[TRANSPONDER]

JW has been trying to confuse the ussue for the last two pages. He referred to the past (a load of Biblequotes) to give context to the present. It was telling us about Biblegod and (it seemed to me) pointing to (supposed) prophecies of Jesus, though the topic is about God, rather than the Jesus -aspect.

So a deed of God that wasn't so positive was presented and JW didn't like it and denounced it as false (to say it was showing God as evil). We don't think so. We think that past (or mythology set in ancient days) shows that Biblegod is as evil as could be imagined.

Yet it's skewing the topic which is about whether it's reasonable to believe in God, and the sub -topic of that can mean many gods. Some more reasonable than others.

The god of the Bible is one it not reasonable to believe in nor is it desirable to do so. A Deist denizen that drives up the Dopamine, ok but not the brutal beast of the Bible, no thanks.

[JehovahsWitness]

I think there are certain notions of God that are entirely reasonable. But we'd have to clarify what God is, and what the argument is, to answer your question…

Would such ‘notions’ include things like ‘God is in all things’ (i.e. simply calling the laws of nature, ‘God’)?

What about multiple gods? Is it still reasonable to allow for them?

And how about advanced alien civilisations? Is it reasonable to believe they exist, and by virtue of their ‘godlike power’, deserve to be described as gods?

I dont think the OP stipulated which God. The only stipulation was as follows ....

Is it reasonable to believe in God?

Identifying God ( if one happens to believe in one) is a whole other discussion.

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, GODS and ... THE DIVINE NAME

[TRANSPONDER]

I think there are certain notions of God that are entirely reasonable. But we'd have to clarify what God is, and what the argument is, to answer your question…

Would such ‘notions’ include things like ‘God is in all things’ (i.e. simply calling the laws of nature, ‘God’)?

What about multiple gods? Is it still reasonable to allow for them?

And how about advanced alien civilisations? Is it reasonable to believe they exist, and by virtue of their ‘godlike power’, deserve to be described as gods?

I dont think the OP stipulated which God. The only stipulation was as follows ....

Is it reasonable to believe in God?

Identifying God ( if one happens to believe in one) is a whole other discussion.

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, GODS and ... THE DIVINE NAME

Of course. Even with a capital G, one could be talking about the personal god of various religions, or even a Deist -god, though at least with some part in creating the earth. But it can mean many things, as I recall you pointed out with the string of definitions.

That's cool. Let the poster explain what they mean by their god -claim, and we can discuss it. It's pretty clear which aspect of the god -claim You're talking about.

[Miles]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

Isaiah 13:11-16
11 I will punish the world for its evil . . . .

The statement itself disproves your assertion; the punishment of evil is not cruel; quite the contrary, allowing evil to continue unchecked is both cruel and corrupt.

First of all, I'm not talking about the cruelty of evil but the cruelty of the attack mentioned in Isaiah 13: 15-18 where innocent wives were ravished and infants were dashed to pieces. (Please revisit post 60). Evil only comes into the picture as the reason for the provocation. And what is the reason for the existence of evil? It's that god wanted it that way. He puts it here.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

And now you're suggesting that allowing god's creation (evil) to continue unchecked is both cruel and corrupt. To tell you the truth I'm quite surprised that any JW would challenge god's decisions. But so be it. Your religion is indeed a bit of a puzzle.

And as I previously questioned and concluded:

"So, why would a loving god do such a thing? Make a trap so he could punish his creatures, be they victims of his evil or not? Because he's psychologically unhinged. Either that or he's a vicious god masquerading as Mr. nice guy selling snake oil."

.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE BIBLE DEPICT GOD AS COMMISSIONING WAR CRIMES?

ISAIAH 13:15-18

"Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children."

First of all, I'm not talking about the cruelty of evil but the cruelty of the attack mentioned in Isaiah 13: 15-18 where innocent wives were ravished and infants were dashed to pieces. (Please revisit post 60).

According to the narrative, any cruelty was not God's doing. He is reported to have appointed the Medes to overthrow the Babylonians (and avenge his enslaved people), how they did it was their own affair*. Isiaiah was simply reporting in advance what would happen, not sanctioning any crimes committed while it did.

In short, if the Medes had arrived and a kind invitation to the Babylonians to step down had been accepted, Gods purpose would have been accomplished regarding their (notably Cyrus' ) commission.

That everyone concerned wished to fight to the death is just how they carried out warfare, no God required. The same thing had happened regarding the Israelites. God withdrew his protection because of their faithlessness and announced that the Baylonians would act as his means to discipline them. The Baylonians however went on to commit autrocious acts that went far beyond what God had authorized them to do. For this they would themselves in turn be sanctioned. That is what we can read in Isiaiah chapter 13.



* God has on occassion commanded his people to totally wipe out enemy nations but this was not such an occassion. He has never commissioned rape.


JW





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To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

DIVINE WAR , RAPE and ...KILLING IN SCRIPTURE

[TRANSPONDER]

DOES THE BIBLE DEPICT GOD AS COMMISSIONING WAR CRIMES?

ISAIAH 13:15-18

"Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children."

First of all, I'm not talking about the cruelty of evil but the cruelty of the attack mentioned in Isaiah 13: 15-18 where innocent wives were ravished and infants were dashed to pieces. (Please revisit post 60).

According to the narrative, any cruelty was not God's doing. He is reported to have appointed the Medes to overthrow the Babylonians (and avenge his enslaved people), how they did it was their own affair*. Isiaiah was simply reporting in advance what would happen, not sanctioning any crimes committed while it did.

The same thing had happened regarding the Israelites. God withdrew his protection because of their faithlessness and announced that the Baylonians would act as his means to discipline them. The Baylonians however went on to commit autrocious acts that went far beyond what God had authorized them to do. For this they would themselves in turn be sanctioned. That is what we can read in Isiaiah chapter 13.



* God has on occassion commanded his people to totally wipe out enemy nations but this was not such an occassion. He has never commissioned rape.


JW

All totally disgusting. As if God din't already know what was going to happen and he went ahead anyway and did nothing to correct his mistakes. I am so very glad that I accept that this is all our own doing and nobody else's responsibility or fault and I don't have to lie to myself and everyone else, trying to excuse the one in charge.

[Miles]

DOES THE BIBLE DEPICT GOD AS COMMISSIONING WAR CRIMES?

ISAIAH 13:15-18

"Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children."

First of all, I'm not talking about the cruelty of evil but the cruelty of the attack mentioned in Isaiah 13: 15-18 where innocent wives were ravished and infants were dashed to pieces. (Please revisit post 60).

According to the narrative, any cruelty was not God's doing.

It certainly was.

God speaking in Isaiah 13:11-16

11
I will punish the world for its evil,
and the wicked for their iniquity;
I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant,
and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.
12
I will make people more rare than fine gold,
and mankind than the gold of Ophir.
13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
at the wrath of the Lord of hosts
in the day of his fierce anger.
14
And like a hunted gazelle,
or like sheep with none to gather them,
each will turn to his own people,
and each will flee to his own land.
15
Whoever is found will be thrust through,
and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
16
Their infants will be dashed in pieces
before their eyes;
their houses will be plundered
and their wives ravished.

NOW, do you honestly think anyone but god could:

"punish the world for its evil,"
"make the heavens tremble,"
"make people more rare than fine gold,"
"make the earth shake out of its place,"
make sure that "whoever is found will be thrust through,"
make sure that "infants will be dashed in pieces,"
make sure that "their houses will be plundered,"
and make sure that "their wives ravished.

If so, please name names

* God has on occassion commanded his people to totally wipe out enemy nations but this was not such an occassion. He has never commissioned rape.

Well lets take a look at 2 Samuel 12:11 where god says to David:

11This is what the Lord says: ‘I am bringing trouble against you. This trouble will come from your own family. I will take your wives from you and give them to someone who is very close to you. He will have sexual relations with your wives, and everyone will know it![.’

Think these wives, reported to be 700 in total, welcomed their neighbors, or whomever, into their boudoirs for a little hanky-panky, and the event then broadcast all over town? Gotta tell ya, forcing women, wives in this case, to have sexual relations with whomever certainly sounds like rape to me.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

I cannot see how this has anything to do with the OP. If you would like to discuss the bible narrative, it might be a idea to open another thread.

Let us return to the topic at hand.


JW

[Miles]

I cannot see how this has anything to do with the OP.

Game, Set, and Match.

In any case "this" doesn't have anything to do with the OP. It has to do with your question, "DOES THE BIBLE DEPICT GOD AS COMMISSIONING WAR CRIMES?'

If you would like to discuss the bible narrative, it might be a idea to open another thread.
Let us return to the topic at hand.

Fine, then how about answering the OP without jumping into the need of a first cause; misstating what philosophers and scientists call "logical inevitability;" becoming lost in an irrelevant observation about the movement of other galaxies; making an attempt at a rather contorted syllogism, I guess; and asserting an unsupported claim about god.

.

[TRANSPONDER]

I cannot see how this has anything to do with the OP. If you would like to discuss the bible narrative, it might be a idea to open another thread.

Let us return to the topic at hand.


JW

As Miles says, it is. because it is the 2nd rank deconverter - problem of evil. This supposedly perfectly good god does or commands, directs and instigates evil, and the Bible makes that plain. We have two possible reasonable conclusions - that god exists and is evil or we cannot believe that god really exists. Given the adequate evidence these days for natural causes and effects and no sign of a god, the reaonable conclusion is not to believe there is one and we do our own evil without having a god to push us into it.

During the debate on the Bible inerrancy thread it came out that Pharoah was not stubborn himself but God overrode his free will as he does with Assyrians and Babylonians (supposedly) and made him refuse to release the Israelites even when he was willing to let them go. Given omniscience (which not all believers think is the case) God knew the death and misery this would cause, and went ahead, not just letting it happen, but intervening to make it happen. We know this is so and a problem because Bible apologists try to deny or excuse it or blame it on men, when it is clearly God doing it, according to the Bible.

Reasonable conclusion? Some bite the bullet and say 'Ok God did this, what can you do about it. Better praise him, evil or not or you'll burn'. ...Yea, verily, verily, I say unti you..."



It has a sort of bitter honesty about it. More so than the denialists who will not accept what the Bible quite clearly says - God does evil according to the morality he supposedly gave us which is his own, by nature we are supposed to beleive. That sort of cognitive dissonance isn't reasonable which is why we say 'does not exist'. With very high confidence.

That is the relevance to the OP and it is a very real and valid objection to disbelieve in that particular god. And the Believers see it, too as they have to deny, ignore and excuse the Bible saying that God does this evil, very plainly. And i think you see it, too as you could do no better than pull the old ploy of 'off topic'. It is bang on topic. And undeniably valid.

cue: (possibly) 'we can know nothing for sure' by way of 'God knows it makes sense, even if we don't'.