Are gods insignificant unless they do something?

[Zzyzx]

.
What is the significance of gods unless they do or have done something?

What have your favorite gods done lately (or ever)?

How do you know what they do or did? Did someone tell you? Read a book? Have a psychic experience? Use your imagination?

Is there any verifiable evidence that any of the thousands of proposed 'gods' has ever done anything?

Before humans learned about cause-and-effect in terrestrial matters, they credited ‘gods’ with being responsible for rain, flood, drought, storms, insect plagues, diseases, crop failures, thunder, darkening of the sun or moon, etc, etc. With those accounted for without need for ‘gods’, what is left for the ‘gods’ to do in respect to humans?

[Diagoras]

[Replying to Overcomer in post #29]

I can recommend a Tim Minchin song ("Thank you God"), written in response to his friend Sam's story about his mum. Some bad language however, so not linking to it here. Should be easy to find the lyrics if anyone's interested.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 19 by JehovahsWitness]

Well, I suppose the conclusion is that:
If some entity claims they he did some miraculous thing [...] that God is insignificant, even if he were real.

God didn't merely claim to do such things, by all reports he did them. One does not have to believe the reports of such actions but the existence of testimonies as to YHWH the God of the bible having amply proven to all who were witesses, that His mighty acts establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is the only True and living God is a matter of fact.

Even If we are judging gods by their impact on humanity, the God of Abraham has proven to be mightier than all the myriads of pagan/ tribal gods or their dead Greek or Roman cousins who live only as relics in the dusty museums of history, to be dragged out by academics that dont believe themselves there are anything but entertaining fiction. Thus goes the "impact" of YAWEH'S rivals today.

ISAIAH 44:6

This is what Jehovah says, [...] ‘I am the first and I am the last.
There is no God but me.

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[Clownboat]

God didn't merely claim to do such things, by all reports he did them.

Jesus was rejected by those who knew him best in his home town of Nazareth. Those who knew him rejected him as being a Mesiah.

One does not have to believe the reports of such actions but the existence of testimonies as to YHWH the God of the bible having amply proven to all who were witesses, that His mighty acts establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is the only True and living God is a matter of fact.

Again, those who knew him best and for the longest rejected him. This shows us that his might acts did not establish beyond doubt that he was a god like you have claimed.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus was rejected by those who knew him best in his home town of Nazareth. Those who knew him rejected him as being a Mesiah.

There is no doubt some rejected Jesus but the account indicates alternative motives. Jesus observation indicate his fellow Nazenes were not questioning his abilities but his priorities.

LUKE 4:22-24

And they all began to give favorable witness about him and to be amazed at the gracious words coming out of his mouth,+ and they were saying: “This is a son of Joseph, is it not?” At this he said to them: “No doubt you will apply this saying to me, ‘Physician, cure yourself. Do also here in your home territory the things we have heard were done in Ca·perʹna·um.’” So he said: “Truly I tell you that no prophet is accepted in his home territory.

JW





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[Clownboat]

Jesus was rejected by those who knew him best in his home town of Nazareth. Those who knew him rejected him as being a Mesiah.

There is no doubt some rejected Jesus but the account indicates alternative motives. Jesus observation indicate his fellow Nazenes were not questioning his abilities but his priorities.

LUKE 4:22-24

And they all began to give favorable witness about him and to be amazed at the gracious words coming out of his mouth,+ and they were saying: “This is a son of Joseph, is it not?” At this he said to them: “No doubt you will apply this saying to me, ‘Physician, cure yourself. Do also here in your home territory the things we have heard were done in Ca·perʹna·um.’” So he said: “Truly I tell you that no prophet is accepted in his home territory.

I hear the justification that was written in the religious promotional material and I agree that no prophet would be accepted in his home town territory due to the fact that those people would then know said prophet to be a fraud.

I don't see why we would give a Jesus character special treatment in this regard as we cannot show that the man had the ability to know the future. Therefore it stands to reason that those who knew him best rejected him for good reason.

If Jesus thought his words through, he would know that a prophet can be accepted, even in his home town (if prophecy were a thing). In Jesus's case, he would just have needed to do what he did in Capernaum or with the fishes and loaves. Instead, the Bible provides an excuse that doesn't ring true if you think about it and one that is easy to see through IMO.

There is a reason that con artists go after strangers afterall. Those that know them will be less likely to fall for the con.

[JehovahsWitness]

DID JESUS TOWNSMEN TRY TO KILL HIM BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED HIS MIRACLES TO BE FRAUDULENT?

There is no textual evidence to conclude Jesus miracles had been exposed as fraudulent. The anger of his some of his townsfolk seemed to stem from their belief in the reports but rather than disbelief...

• The Nazarenes would hardly have requested he repeat miracles at home if they did not believe he had done any miracles elsewhere in the first place. Even if some did doubt the reports or came to negative conclusion because of his reply, one can hardly equate that to being "exposed as a fraud". After all would you claim an Olympic gold medal athlete must be a cheat because he refused to race your cousin Melvin ?

• By all accounts even Jesus enemies did not question his abilities to perform miracles , they only suggested they stemmed from occult forces. If his townsfolk did not believe in Jesus feats that would hardly have been a fact they would have neglected to use against him.

• In their attempts to discredit him Jesus enemies resorted to accusations of immorality which seems a strange choice if it had been common knowlege in his local community that his reported miracle working feats never happened

• By far the majority of his disciples were from his home region of Galilee well within walking distance of his home town, with at least two of his eventual Apostles being his cousins. His mother, arguably someone that knew him better than most, was a disciple as were eventiually at least two of his brothers. Thus it is totally misleading to suggest that none of those that knew him well/best believed in him or that he targetted "strangers"

CONCLUSION While there may have been some that doubted the reports of Jesus miracles, taken as is, there is every indication that the Nazarenes anger was not that they doubted his abilities (which arguably would have rather given rise to derision or mockery rather than their supposed indignation) but rather expected privileged treatment being his kinsmen.




JW

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[Diagoras]

One does not have to believe the reports of such actions but the existence of testimonies as to YHWH the God of the bible having amply proven to all who were witesses, that His mighty acts establish beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is the only True and living God is a matter of fact.

Again, those who knew him best and for the longest rejected him. This shows us that his might acts did not establish beyond doubt that he was a god like you have claimed.

To support that point, here's "71 bible verses about rejection of god":

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Rejection-Of-God

[Clownboat]

DID JESUS TOWNSMEN TRY TO KILL HIM BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED HIS MIRACLES TO BE FRAUDULENT?

I don't think that anyone has claimed that he was rejected for fraudulent miracles. However, I would assume those from his home town that rejected him were not aware of any actual miracles done by him. I would imagine they doubted the miracle claims, but they sure did reject his claim about fulfilling a prophecy.

Any prophet, miracle worker, shaman or what have you would surely not be rejected if they could show that they spoke the truth.
Jesus apparently could not convince them that he spoke the truth and this is the excuse we get:
"24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown."

There is no reason that a true prophet would not be accepted in their hometown. Someone known to not be a prophet surely will be rejected, which the story seems to suggest.

The Nazarenes would hardly have requested he repeat miracles at home if they did not believe he had done any miracles elsewhere in the first place.

This would be 'calling him out' and would be my first request. If you are being honest in this situation, you would support my 'calling him out' I would presume.

Even if some did doubt the reports or came to negative conclusion because of his reply, one can hardly equate that to being "exposed as a fraud".

Perhaps he was exposed as a fraud, but the text does not say that (naturally). His claim of fulfilling prophecy was rejected though by those who knew him best.

If his townsfolk did not believe in Jesus feats that would hardly have been a fact they would have neglected to use against him.

They rejected him for claiming to fulfill prophecy. That he made excuses for not showing that he spoke the truth would just reinforce their belief that he is a fraud.

In their attempts to discredit him Jesus enemies resorted to accusations of immorality which seems a strange choice if it had been common knowledge in his local community that his reported miracle working feats never happened.

You're forgetting that these people grew up with Jesus. We cannot know how immoral Jesus was as a child in Nazareth. Guess who would though, those that rejected him. Hmm???

By far the majority of his disciples were from his home region of Galilee well within walking distance of his home town, with at least two of his eventual Apostles being his cousins. His mother, arguably someone that knew him better than most, was a disciple as were eventiually at least two of his brothers. Thus it is totally misleading to suggest that none of those that knew him well/best believed in him or that he targetted "strangers"

They were in on it perhaps? If so, they also would have known him to be a fraud.

CONCLUSION While there may have been some that doubted the reports of Jesus miracles, taken as is, there is every indication that the Nazarenes anger was not that they doubted his abilities (which arguably would have rather given rise to derision or mockery rather than their supposed indignation) but rather expected privileged treatment being his kinsmen.

This is what seems to have started the issue:
Luke 4:21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
They rejected this claim. He then starts making excuses for why they will not accept him. This seems to anger them even more.

Those from his home town that would have known him best, rejected the claim that he fulfilled prophecy. Whether they doubted his miracle works or not is just a distraction to this point.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #34]

Yes, the Jews of the day accepted Jesus so well, that they rebelled against paying taxes, rebelled against obeying Rome, rejected his new stamp on law, rejected the entirety of his religion, so well, that they were willing to die and preferred diaspora to accepting him.

It was almost as if they knew paying taxes to a foreign god, and divine monarchy would offend Jehovah, and that obeying another divine would also be blasphemy to a jealous god. Of course crossing adultery off the Ten Commandments probably didn't make them happy either.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Jesus was rejected by those who knew him best in his home town of Nazareth. Those who knew him rejected him as being a Mesiah.

And according to the same stories, those who reject him as the Messiah do so to their own destruction.

Again, those who knew him best and for the longest rejected him. This shows us that his might acts did not establish beyond doubt that he was a god like you have claimed.

So then the question becomes; at that point, what more can you do? Second, when you say "his might" (mighty acts/miracles) did not establish beyond doubt that Jesus was god...you are presupposing the fact that such acts were demonstrated.