What is special about Jesus?

[Wootah]

If we can agree that bulls and lambs are insufficient propitiations for our sins then what makes Jesus a sufficient propitiation?

Especially if you think Jesus is a created being then what makes one created being sufficient and another insufficient?

If he is a human then how did he pull it off to not sin for 33 years? Was Jesus created perfect?

[brunumb]

But what is so bad about suffering?

That's what is so frightening about faith. You can always find ways to make atrocities acceptable, as long as they're sanctioned by God.

[brunumb]

I certainly made a positive statement, you are assuming it was of a positive statement of knowledge but it was in fact a positive statement of faith. To clarify ALL my statements are statements of faith; you may apply that to everything I write.

Which pretty much nullifies every argument you make here. Anything can be accepted on faith. If you can't demonstrate that those things are actually true then you have no case to make. This would appear to be the wrong kind of forum to indulge in faith based arguments.

[theophile]

But what is so bad about suffering?

That's what is so frightening about faith. You can always find ways to make atrocities acceptable, as long as they're sanctioned by God.

Okay, a doubling down on completely abandoning all argument then. Gotcha. We're clearly done here.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #48]

Only perfect could be good enough. The ransom sacrifice had to be equal in value to what was lost.

How can a man be perfect? In my view, it is not possible.

Actually this is a big difference in theology and the justice system disagrees with you. Suppose a person attempted murder and failed and no harm occurred. I would argue and so would the justice system that the criminal should be tried as a murderer and suffer that penalty, you would argue from your statement that nothing was lost and so the punishment not equal the crime.

This is why sin is against God. How can a created finite being pay for sins against an uncreated, infinite being?

[JehovahsWitness]

How can a man be perfect?

If the man is created by God he will be perfect, because God only creates that which is perfect, its really that simple (see Deut 32:4).

In my view, it is not possible.

Well maybe it would be better to adopte God's view.

MATTHEW 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jehovah's Witnesss believe God to be omnipotent so, as Jesus said, there is NOTHING that is literally impossible for God.

1 PETER 2:22

He [Christ] committed no sin

In my view, it is not possible.

JW



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[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

So you keep saying he is and isn't perfect. Now you are saying Jesus is perfect.

If the man is created by God he will be perfect, because God only creates that which is perfect, its really that simple (see Deut 32:4).

So was Jesus made perfect or not? Because I keep moving on from this because I thought you said he was not made perfect but lived a perfect life.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

So you keep saying he is and isn't perfect. Now you are saying Jesus is perfect.

When did I ever say Jesus isn't perfect? Perhaps would like to use the quote feature so we can clear up any misunderstanding.

So are you arguing Jesus is perfect ....?

Yes, I [am] arguing that Jesus is perfect although he is no longer a human.

So was Jesus made perfect or not?

Jesus was made perfect.

... I keep moving on from this because I thought you said he was not made perfect but lived a perfect life.

No I never said that, I would never say such a thing ! Jesus was made perfect AND lived a perfect life. (Unlike Adam who was also made perfect but failed to live a perfect life).

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #55]

Well maybe it would be better to adopte God's view.

lol.

Hey here is where this is leading and why you should be straight on whether you think Jesus is perfect or not.

If Jesus is created perfectly then he is a deus ex machina. Of all the created things God deliberately blocked them from being sinless except this created thing. Personally, I think your theology is at least as bad as calvinism (that many are made to be condemned).

If Jesus is a man, an actual man that is a substitute for us, then he is with sin.

Of course, if we adopted God's view we would see Jesus as God. God incarnate, that took on human nature so as to be able to be our substitute and yet also pay for our sins against God.

This is why sin is against God. How can a created finite being (perfect or not) pay for sins against an uncreated, infinite being?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #58]

Bonus: If Jesus is not a man, then he can't be our substitute.

[JehovahsWitness]

If Jesus is created perfectly then he is a deus ex machina.

https://www.masterclass.com/articles/un ... ex-machina

Putting aside this is primariy a literary device which may lead some to think of Jesus as a fictional character, an analysis is in order to determine if such an expression should reasonably be applied to Jesus.

According to the website masterclass "The deus ex machina device is generally regarded as a cheap way to insert an easy conclusion, but it can also function as a comedic device or add an element of surprise". The appearance of a Messiah was neither "cheap" not "comical" and as I said was a historical event not a fictional device. That said, the introduction (albeit announced from the "beginning" and long awaited) was an astonishing event from the realm of the supernatural which "saved the day" in an hitherto inimaginable way from a human point of view and in that way could be viewed as " a deus ex machina"

LUKE 2:10

But the angel said to them: “Do not be afraid, for look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have.

Deus ex machina is a Latin term literally translated from a Greek phrase meaning “god from the machine.” The term originated in ancient Greek theater as a reference to the stage machinery that would bring statues of deities or actors playing gods to and from the stage. The machine could be a crane to lift the actor or statue, or a mechanism letting it rise through a trapdoor in the floor. This machine would allow the “gods” to appear and provide divine intervention at the end of a play in order to provide a neat solution or happy ending.

Given the evident "fakery" of it origine, bible believers are obviously reluctant to employ this expresson but if used to illustrate that "The Word" was sent to earth by divine intervention for the salvation of mankind the it would not be objectionable. Christ most certainly is the means by which God provides mankind with {quote} "provide a neat solution" and a "happy ending". Whether said solution is, (quoting the same source)"a solution so bizarre and ridiculous it becomes funny" depends on one's degree of faith.

CONCLUSION The Word becoming flesh and dwelling amongst us to provide a solution to an "unsurmountable" predicament, was indeed divine intervention that saved the day, but due to its association with that which is trite, improbable and and ultimately unbelieveable, not a term which should be applied to the appearance of our Lord.

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