"Memorials"?

[Athetotheist]

The last chapters of Ezekiel are generally regarded by Jews and Christians alike as a picture of the messianic age. From a Jewish perspective this may work, but Christian doctrine runs into a problem in chapter 45 when "the prince" makes sacrificial offerings----including sin offerings----for the people and for himself, which doesn't paint a very strong picture of a messianic age ruled by Jesus who already made the ultimate atoning sacrifice. Some apologists claim that the prince isn't Jesus and that the latter is in the background of the scenario, but that doesn't solve the problem since Jesus is supposed to have made the final sacrifice for everyone, so no further sacrifice should be necessary.

Here apologists resort to the claim that these are "memorial" sacrifices which are made to "remind" those living in the messianic age of what Jesus did. The problem with this is that the text itself gives a reason for the sacrifices, and that's not it:

"He (the prince) shall prepare the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings to make atonement for the house of Israel. (Ezek. 45:17, bolding mine)

If those sacrifices are to be offered to make atonement, that means atonement hasn't been made until the sacrifices are offered. How then are they supposed to be "memorials" to some atonement already made by some sacrificial Messiah?

[JehovahsWitness]

How did the "High Priest" mediate the new covenant when the conditions of that covenant haven't been realized?

What "conditions of [the new covenant] " have in your opinion {quote} "not been realized"?

JW

[Athetotheist]

How did the "High Priest" mediate the new covenant when the conditions of that covenant haven't been realized?

What "conditions of [the new covenant] " have in your opinion {quote} "not been realized"?

JW

"No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord', for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord."

Has that ever happened among the Jews? No. (Some Jews are even atheists.) And that's not my opinion; it's easily observable fact.

[JehovahsWitness]

How did the "High Priest" mediate the new covenant when the conditions of that covenant haven't been realized?

What "conditions of [the new covenant] " have in your opinion {quote} "not been realized"?

JW

"No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord', for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord."

Has that ever happened among the Jews? No. (Some Jews are even atheists.) And that's not my opinion; it's easily observable fact.

And what pray tell has the "new covenant" to do with Jews (and atheists)?


JW




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[Athetotheist]

How did the "High Priest" mediate the new covenant when the conditions of that covenant haven't been realized?

What "conditions of [the new covenant] " have in your opinion {quote} "not been realized"?

JW

"No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord', for they all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord."

Has that ever happened among the Jews? No. (Some Jews are even atheists.) And that's not my opinion; it's easily observable fact.

And what pray tell has the "new covenant" to do with Jews (and atheists)?

Look back just a couple of verses:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah----not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt....."

Who do you think this is talking about?

And Jews who are atheists don't "know the Lord", do they?

[JehovahsWitness]

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah----not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt....."

Who do you think this is talking about?

I think it is talking about spirit anointed followers of Christ.



JW




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[Athetotheist]

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah----not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt....."

Who do you think this is talking about?

I think it is talking about spirit anointed followers of Christ.

Do you see the problem here? Every link you've included is to a Christian source quoting Christian source text. How are you backing this up with any argument which isn't circular? Where does the Jewish Bible (the Tanakh) have Jehovah saying that the Jewish people would ever be replaced by anyone?

[JehovahsWitness]

How are you backing this up with any argument which isn't circular?

I " back up" my opinions and beliefs with the infernal logic of the text itself and the conclusion of Jewish experts, if you have any counter arguments that are not themselvs circular feel free to present them.




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Where does the Jewish Bible (the Tanakh) have Jehovah saying that the Jewish people would ever be replaced by anyone?

They were not "replaced" (since they never occupied a "place" in the New Covenant ) and the conditions of the promise was intrinic in biblical warnings.

1 SAMUEL 12:24-25

Only fear Jehovah, and serve him faithfully with all your heart, for see what great things he has done for you. But if you flagrantly do what is bad, you will be swept away, both you and your king."

Evidently God's promise of a new covenant would be dependent on their faithfulness as a nation. Logically if they rejected The Prophet sent to mediate said covenant, the promise became null and void.




JW

[Athetotheist]

How are you backing this up with any argument which isn't circular?

I " back up" my opinions and beliefs with the infernal logic of the text itself and the conclusion of Jewish experts, if you have any counter arguments that are not themselvs circular feel free to present them.

I've been quoting Jewish experts for a while now. Their conclusions certainly don't back up your opinions.

[JehovahsWitness]

How are you backing this up with any argument which isn't circular?

I " back up" my opinions and beliefs with the infernal logic of the text itself and the conclusion of Jewish experts, if you have any counter arguments that are not themselvs circular feel free to present them.

I've been quoting Jewish experts for a while now. Their conclusions certainly don't back up your opinions.

The Jewish experts I have refered to, do; evidently there is a division of opinion. That leaves each person to decide which arguments they find most convincing.



JW