The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1013]

I feel like I'm in a room of mirrors, trying to understand what you're asking. I can't quite get it clear. I'll try to answer as plainly as possible. I see no complication in what I believe.

The King of God's Kingdom is Jesus Christ, the Son.

He is in heaven, at the Father's right hand.

He is a real person in heaven, and when on Earth. He is now in heaven and will rule from heaven over the earth.

O.K. Thanks for answering what you could.

Perhaps you could now attempt to answer these two observations/questions:

1). Does this king, Jesus Christ, the Son, now dwell in, make his home in, heaven only, or does he also dwell in, make his home in, his true believers on earth?

2). What is, now, God's temple on earth?

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps you could now attempt to answer these two observations/questions:

1). Does this king, Jesus Christ, the Son, now dwell in, make his home in, heaven only, or does he also dwell in, make his home in, his true believers on earth?

WHERE DOES JESUS LIVE ?

Jesus is a spirit and dwells uniquely at his Fathers right hand in heaven (John 17:5; Psalms 110:1).


IF JESUS IS LITERALLY LIVING WITH HIS FATHER IN HEAVEN, HOW CAN HE AT THE SAME TIME DWELL IN OUR HEARTS?

He is "with" his disciples in the sense that he observes and takes an active part in protecting and supporting them. He does not need to literally return to the planet earth to collaborate and guide them. All that love him have him symbolically "dwell in their hearts". This does not mean he literally enters their chests, it means that they love him and use their lives in a way that pleases him.

It may seem impossible to some that Jesus is literally in another realm, but still have such a huge influence on the lives of believers, but the bible says he promised this would be the case (Mat 18:20).






JW

[JehovahsWitness]

2). What is, now, God's temple on earth?

God's SPIRITUAL temple is the spiritual arrangement made to worship Him. The sanctuary or Holy of holies is the presence of Almighty God himself in heaven. The other parts (the HOLY ) and the COURTYARDS are the condition of his servants while on earth.



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[onewithhim]

How can a government be within someone? ...

I think it means, the King is in your mind, person knows in the mind the King and his will and wants to do it.

I asked you, how could a kingdom be in anyone's mind? Did you read Isaiah 9:6,7 and Daniel 2:44? Does that sound like God's Kingdom is just in someone's imagination?

Hello onewithhim.

I agree, the kingdom is not "just in someone's imagination". But neither is it just "a government".

To grasp what "the kingdom of Christ and of God"(Ephesians 5:5)is at any point, we must take note of and include OT prophecies such as the two you cited, the teachings and parables and prophecies of Jesus and his followers, and what is in Revelation.

These Scriptures cover many aspects of the kingdom. It us not a matter of "one size fits all", as it were.

What poster 1213 expressed could be a valid description of one way the kingdom government operates, couldn't it?

No. He said "the King is in your mind." In reality, the King is a very real Person---Jesus Christ---who will actually rule over the earth, as Isaiah and Daniel attest.

Well now, who is the king in God's kingdom? The Father, the Son, or both?

If this king, or these kings, are not in your mind, where on earth is he/are they? Somewhere in every real believer?

Yes, "In reality, the King is a very real Person---".

Are you saying that is only so in heaven, and in regard to him "who will actually rule over the earth"?

If not, please explain.

I feel like I'm in a room of mirrors, trying to understand what you're asking. I can't quite get it clear. I'll try to answer as plainly as possible. I see no complication in what I believe.

The King of God's Kingdom is Jesus Christ, the Son.

He is in heaven, at the Father's right hand.

He is a real person in heaven, and when on Earth. He is now in heaven and will rule from heaven over the earth.

O.K. Thanks for answering what you could.

Perhaps you could now attempt to answer these two observations/questions:

1). Does this king, Jesus Christ, the Son, now dwell in, make his home in, heaven only, or does he also dwell in, make his home in, his true believers on earth?

2). What is, now, God's temple on earth?

,,

1) Jesus Christ now dwells in heaven only...."the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16)

2) God does not have a literal temple on Earth. There is no need for a physical temple because Christ went to the temple in heaven to present his sacrifice to his Father (Hebrews 9:11,12). Maybe you are referring to the "temple" of anointed believers' bodies here on Earth, according to I Corinthians 3:16.

[We_Are_VENOM]

We believe they are. Under Christ, there will be a thousand year peaceful reign during which the earth will be returned to the paradise-like "garden" God intended it to be.

Yeah but the problem with that is, the thousand year reign of Christ (in particular) will occur on the old earth (this earth), according to Rev chapter 20.

Because as scripture indicates, this particular reign of Christ is going to occur even before judgment, and the new heaven/earth is not yet manifested...that comes later in Rev 21.

[We_Are_VENOM]

Why?! The bible constantly distinguishes beween the two, so why do you conclude the two words refer to the same thing?

I am glad you asked that and again, keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion and I am not sure I am even sold on it yet...but however, my reasons to conclude this is..

1. Notice how John mentions "a new heaven and a new earth". He mentions seeing them both; yet he only goes on to describe the Holy City (Jerusalem, which I assume to be the "new earth") and makes no description of the "new heaven".

To me, that seems to suggest that they are the same place. In the same way that the sky is closely "connected" (lack of a better term) to the earth. Or better yet, how the roof of your house is connected to your house.

You can still technically have the house without the roof, but they correlate, nevertheless....and either way, ultimately, the house and the roof of your house is the "same place".

2. Again, scripture states that God will dwell/live with man, and this is said as the Holy City (Jerusalem) is coming "down from heaven" (Rev 21:1-3). I take this "Holy City" to be synonymous with "heaven".

Because after all, what place can be better than what is described in Rev 21, and where God and his people will ultimately live forever? That, in my opinion, is heaven.

3. And lastly, Paul said that our citizenship is in heaven, and I refuse to believe that he is only talking to a select group of people, but instead ALL believers of Christ.

So, I have 3 good reasons to conclude that all believers will be in heaven/the holy city...which is ultimately the same place, despite being distinct.

Where did he redeem them to? If they were originally on earth, where were they after this process?

I don't know. They will probably be redeemed to the same place that the thief on the cross went..to paradise.

Luke 23:42-43

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (New International Version)

Now of course, the NWT (Jehovah's Witness Bible) renders verse 43 differently..in their Bible, it states..

"Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise".

See that sleight of hand trick?

Since they don't believe in life after death, and those verses CLEARLY teaches life after death, they modified their Bible to match their theology.

I just checked the KJV and the Greek Interlinear, and neither of those renders verse 43 the way that the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT does.

That aside, to answer your question...perhaps the 144k is redeemed and will go to the same place that the thief on the cross went...to paradise.

Here you refer to two different locations ....heaven (where God formerly abided) and the earth from which the 144k were redeemed. Why then do you suggest the two places ( heaven and earth) are the same?

Paul mentions at least 3 heavens (2 Corin 12:2). For reasons, see above.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yeah but the problem with that is, the thousand year reign of Christ (in particular) will occur on the old earth (this earth), according to Rev chapter 20.

What do you mean by "old earth" and why is that problematic ?

[JehovahsWitness]

Why?! The bible constantly distinguishes beween the two, so why do you conclude the two words refer to the same thing?

1. Notice how John mentions "a new heaven and a new earth". He mentions seeing them both; yet he only goes on to describe the Holy City...

1. Does there mere mention of two things mean they are both must the same ? If you see a table and a chair does that mean that the table is the chair?

2. If a writer decides to focus on one thing after mentioning two, does that merge them? If you read "Sally went into a room where there was a table and a chair. She sat on the chair which was green." Does that mean the table is the chair because the table was only mentioned once at the beginning?

Do you suggest we divorce ourselves from everything we know about language and any form of logic to properly analyse the bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

...he only goes on to describe the Holy City (Jerusalem, which I assume to be the "new earth")

Why do you presume the Holy City (Jerusalem) to be the "new earth"?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM , THE 144, 000 and ... THE NEW JERUSALEM

[We_Are_VENOM]

Yeah but the problem with that is, the thousand year reign of Christ (in particular) will occur on the old earth (this earth), according to Rev chapter 20.

What do you mean by "old earth" and why is that problematic ?

"This earth" = "our earth".